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i'm here with professor richard heyer

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who has studied

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the neuroscience of intelligence for

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40 years or so is that correct 40 years

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or more it's not quite clear to me but a

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long time

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right so what are you working on these

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days well

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um i just a couple of months ago

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finished the manuscript for a

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new textbook called the science of human

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intelligence and so

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it was the my latest review

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of the research literature um

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so actually this is the third book um

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i've only i wrote the first book after i

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retired

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uh that was the uh the neuroscience of

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intelligence book

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right and that came out uh at the very

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end of 2016

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2017 and then

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i have edited a book with some

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colleagues

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called intelligence and cognitive

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neuroscience it's a cambridge handbook

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okay that is due to come out sometime uh

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early in 2021 and the textbook the

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science of human

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intelligence with my colleague and

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friend roberto

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collum that is due out sometime in 2021

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also

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so those are textbooks isn't those those

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are for university students

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um yes they're the um

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the handbook of intelligence and

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cognitive neuroscience

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is for more advanced students and the

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science of human intelligence will be

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an introductory textbook and the

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neuroscience of intelligence which is

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out now for a couple of years that was

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intended as an introductory text for

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students but also i wrote it

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for the public as well and it's had a

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very nice

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public uh response actually right now

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this book which

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i'm gonna put a link in the description

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i recommend for the people who watch

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if you're interested in intelligence at

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all especially if you have no idea

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this is a superlative book i read cover

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to cover and i don't say that often

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i just a bit of a background on me i'm

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uh

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matt my background's in math

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mathematical physics in university

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and i pretty much stayed narrowly in

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that field even narrow in that field to

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the theoretical side

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so i know virtually nothing outside that

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and

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this takes someone like me who knows a

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smidgen or modicum about

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neuroscience and intelligence to getting

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a surveillance of the entire field it's

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almost like the bell curve of the

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of 2015 except minus the controversy

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well it's interesting you should say

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that um

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charles murray one of the authors of the

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bell curve is a friend of mine

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and he endorsed the book

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and the controversy about the bell curve

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is largely

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misplaced shall we say a lot of people

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who never read the book

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think they know what's in it and react

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to what they think they know what's in

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it

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but in fact when you actually read the

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book and see what's in it it's nothing

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like it's been portrayed

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right this is another whole side issue

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we can spend an hour talking about that

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yeah okay forget about that the the book

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also has

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humor injected in it and i haven't heard

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that

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mentioned in any of the reviews and i

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found myself chuckling aloud which is

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again rare for me i i this is fantastic

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that you appreciate that

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because either some people didn't notice

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the humor

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or i just couldn't quite figure out if i

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was really trying to be funny

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and there's even you can you can see

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yourself thinking aloud in the book so

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for example there's one

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section where you say i'm paraphrasing

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something like there is no hope and then

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the next section next sentence is

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actually wait there is a study just came

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out so on and so on

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okay just so you know one of my favorite

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parts was

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at the end where you admit your own bias

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and you may admit it in the front too

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your bias towards the genetic

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influence towards intelligence but it's

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not just based on

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your own proclivities or your own

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pensions it's based on 40 years of

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research

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and you say this which i'm going to read

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so

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it's one of the last lines it says i

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challenge you to think critically about

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the studies i've presented throughout

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this book as representative of

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neuroscience progress and about what i

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think they mean

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my challenge to you is to find the weak

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links and loopholes in my presentation

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and when i do

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then you design a new research study and

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fix them or falsify them now that to me

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says that you're a true scientist you're

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saying hey here are my theories

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they i think they're largely correct but

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maybe they're not please

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go show me where they're false and do

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the studies

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well you know to be honest it's not even

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that i think they're mostly correct i

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don't

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know if they're correct the theories

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came from the empirical observations

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and it represents our best guess of what

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might be true

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but they're formulated in a way that

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that creates testable hypotheses

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and so over the years a lot of other

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people

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interested in intelligence have found

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those theories of interest

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and they've tested many of the

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hypotheses

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one of the things i note up front in the

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book is what i call my three laws

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number one no story about the brain is

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simple

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number two no one study is definitive

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and number three almost most importantly

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it takes many years to sort out

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inconsistent and conflicting data from

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different studies

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to establish a weight of evidence on any

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particular

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question and we are now at this stage

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where some of the things i proposed

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as much more than 20 years ago have been

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tested

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there are inconsistent results there are

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contradictory results but an emerging

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weight

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of evidence is apparent to people in the

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field

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and sometimes it supports the original

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formulation sometimes it doesn't

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i was at a meeting a couple years ago

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where

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a terrific researcher

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professor bastin from germany

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gave a talk on the brain efficiency

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hypothesis

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right and she reviewed all the evidence

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as

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uh

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geez about three years ago i think it

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was a meeting in edinburgh

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and she concluded that the evidence

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for the brain efficiency hypothesis

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at best wasn't so strong she was very

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diplomatic

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and uh so i you know i was in the

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audience i raised my hand and i said you

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might be wondering what it feels like to

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be sitting in the audience hearing your

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one of your key you know

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theories being discussed

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and with not too much enthusiasm

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and so she you know started to laugh and

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i said i'll tell you what it feels like

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it feels fantastic it's a it was a

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hypothesis

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it doesn't matter you know what i

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thought whether i thought it was correct

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or not it's an empirical question

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and all the research that has come out

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since

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we've discovered all kinds of

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interesting things that we didn't know

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before from that research so it's not

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whether it's right or wrong

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all hypotheses are meant to be tested

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and then you

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formulate new hypotheses and new

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theories

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based on the new kinds of data and

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what's interesting to me

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about this field is when i started doing

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brain imaging studies of

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intelligence in the late 1980s

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i was one of the few psychologists who

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had any

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access to brain imaging technology

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at that time it was positron emission

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tomography

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this was 12 years before fmri

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became available to most places

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and we were making everything up there

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was no canned

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software to analyze the images there was

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no database of

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images we could access not only did we

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have to pay for every scan we got

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with pet it was twenty five hundred

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dollars per scan

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more than how much was that more than a

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million

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and because pet used short-lived radio

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isotopes

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we had a biocyclotron we had to buy our

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own cyclotron

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so i spent many many years fundraising

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for the capital equipment we needed

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to get a few scans and at that time if

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we could do a sample size of eight

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people these were the first eight people

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ever scanned in an intelligence

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test and everything we saw was

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fantastically interesting no one had

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ever

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seen brain function in this way before

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and so when in our very first study when

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we found

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inverse correlations between glucose

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metabolic rate in the brain which is

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what

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pet assessed and scores on a non-verbal

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abstract reasoning

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test of intelligence that was amazing it

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was very surprising it's not what we

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expected

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and it was thrilling actually even

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though the sample size was

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eight now you can access

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public databases of brain images and get

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a thousand people

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and it doesn't cost you anything for the

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for the public for the audience for the

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people listening do you mind

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outlining what is the brain efficiency

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hypothesis also

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also please let people know the

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advantages and disadvantages to pet

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versus mri i'm not sure

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i remember i'm going off of this book so

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i know what it was in the 1980s and the

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1990s but i don't know if those have

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been fixed if there's any new

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technologies any new

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connections innovations yes i i lost the

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threat of the point i wanted to make

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i'll answer your question but the point

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i wanted to make

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is that you know the 1980s

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35 years ago this is a whole generation

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some of the people i listen to when i go

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to talks now literally were not

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born when i was doing this and

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i could not imagine then the kinds of

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technology

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that's being brought to bear on the

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00:11:10,949 --> 00:11:06,240
brain efficiency hypothesis

290
00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:10,959
and i think people in the field

291
00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:13,040
the young people in the field need to

292
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:14,560
think about what the field is going to

293
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:15,360
be like

294
00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:19,680
35 years from now i won't be here but

295
00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:20,720
it's going to be

296
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:23,440
fantastic even though what they're doing

297
00:11:26,870 --> 00:11:24,160
today

298
00:11:27,509 --> 00:11:26,880
is fantastic and they need to start

299
00:11:30,870 --> 00:11:27,519
thinking

300
00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:30,880
about what's what's coming with the

301
00:11:35,269 --> 00:11:33,120
technology that's coming in the kinds of

302
00:11:39,269 --> 00:11:35,279
questions they're going to ask

303
00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:39,279
so in 1988 positron emission tomography

304
00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:40,480
was brand new

305
00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:42,800
it was available in only a handful of

306
00:11:46,790 --> 00:11:45,120
universities

307
00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:46,800
and that's why i came to the university

308
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,800
of california at irvine because i had an

309
00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:50,560
opportunity to work with people who

310
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:53,120
acquired a pet scan machine

311
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:56,160
here and pet

312
00:12:00,790 --> 00:11:59,680
works by um injecting a radioactive

313
00:12:03,269 --> 00:12:00,800
tracer

314
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:03,279
into a person while they're doing a

315
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:04,880
cognitive task

316
00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:07,760
and the tracer labels those hearts parts

317
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:09,200
of the brain that we're taking up the

318
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:10,399
most glucose

319
00:12:14,150 --> 00:12:13,440
that we're using the most energy and

320
00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:14,160
then

321
00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:17,680
you can make a picture of the um

322
00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:20,079
the places in the brain that took up the

323
00:12:24,069 --> 00:12:22,480
most of the radioactive tracer

324
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:24,079
because the parts of the brain that are

325
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:26,079
working the hardest

326
00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:28,720
would take up the most glucose and give

327
00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:29,519
off the most

328
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:33,839
radio activity to make the picture from

329
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:38,399
and the very first study we did we were

330
00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:40,079
interested in what parts of the brain

331
00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:41,680
were most active

332
00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:43,920
while people were literally solving

333
00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:45,760
intelligence test items

334
00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:48,880
they were non-verbal abstract reasoning

335
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:52,000
problems and we found

336
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:54,240
some areas of the brain compared to some

337
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:55,680
control conditions

338
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:58,720
were more active while people solved the

339
00:13:02,870 --> 00:12:59,519
problems

340
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:02,880
but the surprising thing was when you

341
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:05,600
correlated the amount of glucose

342
00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:06,320
activity

343
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:08,240
in those parts of the brain that were

344
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:09,440
more active

345
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:11,839
to the scores people got on the

346
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:13,360
intelligence test

347
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:17,440
the correlations were inverse that is

348
00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:20,480
the people whose brains were working the

349
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:21,440
hardest

350
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,040
had the lowest scores hence the brain

351
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:27,279
efficiency hypothesis

352
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:29,360
that it's not how hard your brain was

353
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:31,040
working that made you

354
00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:33,200
score high on the test it was how

355
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:34,480
efficiently

356
00:13:39,389 --> 00:13:36,959
your brain was working that's how we

357
00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:39,399
explained the inverse correlations in

358
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:41,040
1988

359
00:13:48,069 --> 00:13:45,600
and and that was the origin of a lot of

360
00:13:51,670 --> 00:13:48,079
subsequent research

361
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:51,680
on the direction of correlations between

362
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:52,160
brain

363
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:55,199
activity measured by pet measured by

364
00:14:02,790 --> 00:13:58,800
functional mri and scores on

365
00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:02,800
intelligence tests between 1988

366
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:06,240
and the year 2000 not much happened in

367
00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:09,920
brain imaging studies of intelligence

368
00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:13,120
pet was a very complicated and expensive

369
00:14:17,509 --> 00:14:14,399
technology

370
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:17,519
it was not available in many places but

371
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:19,680
around the year 2000

372
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:22,880
functional mri became available

373
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:25,040
although mri machines have been around

374
00:14:29,189 --> 00:14:26,720
for a while

375
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:29,199
getting functional information in terms

376
00:14:33,189 --> 00:14:30,240
of blood flow

377
00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:33,199
out of an mri scanner start to be

378
00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:34,720
started to become available

379
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:37,600
around 2000 and then a remarkable thing

380
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:38,240
happened

381
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:41,600
a bunch of cognitive psychologists

382
00:14:46,389 --> 00:14:43,760
who were really not so much interested

383
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:46,399
in brain location

384
00:14:51,189 --> 00:14:48,880
but we're interested in how the brain

385
00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:51,199
processes information irrespective of

386
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:54,079
the brain areas involved

387
00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:57,199
fmri was readily available in many

388
00:14:59,750 --> 00:14:58,000
institutions

389
00:15:01,990 --> 00:14:59,760
in the medical school so a lot of

390
00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:02,000
cognitive psychologists

391
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:05,519
started getting access to fmri

392
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:08,800
and they started doing fmri studies of

393
00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:09,920
cognition

394
00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:12,000
and some of that included tests of

395
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:13,760
intelligence

396
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:16,880
so there it's kind of a watershed moment

397
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:18,800
in cognitive psychology

398
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:21,199
where people who traditionally were

399
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:22,320
uninterested in

400
00:15:29,350 --> 00:15:26,079
individual differences became in

401
00:15:31,389 --> 00:15:29,360
individual difference researchers

402
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:31,399
and now we have a lot of the most

403
00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:33,040
sophisticated

404
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:35,440
brain imaging studies and intelligence

405
00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:37,600
being done by sophisticated brain

406
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:38,800
imaging people

407
00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:40,720
who were never really came up through

408
00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:43,360
the ranks of intelligence research

409
00:15:46,949 --> 00:15:46,160
so the whole field is is very exciting a

410
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:46,959
lot of new

411
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:52,480
this is not your grandfather's uh

412
00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:55,199
intelligence research you know that was

413
00:15:59,350 --> 00:15:55,600
all

414
00:16:01,749 --> 00:15:59,360
paper and pencil iq test scores are iq

415
00:16:03,189 --> 00:16:01,759
scores meaningful at all aren't they

416
00:16:07,189 --> 00:16:03,199
just biased

417
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:07,199
and those controversies are long gone

418
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:09,360
long gone in your field but to the

419
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:10,800
general public

420
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:13,440
it's still it's still a touchy issue in

421
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:15,120
fact you even mentioned that

422
00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:17,680
some researchers say we're measuring

423
00:16:19,749 --> 00:16:18,399
reasoning

424
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,759
and they don't mention intelligence

425
00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:21,360
because maybe the grant providers will

426
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:23,120
be more likely to give funding to people

427
00:16:26,949 --> 00:16:24,720
who don't study intelligence because of

428
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:26,959
the the stigma attached to it

429
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:29,600
the stigma attached to intelligence came

430
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:30,160
about

431
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:33,600
almost overnight there was a time when

432
00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:37,360
educational tended to be experts in

433
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:39,120
psychometrics and things like

434
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:42,399
intelligence testing as i actually

435
00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:44,079
explained in the book

436
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:46,959
the watershed moment was the publication

437
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:48,880
of an article by an educational

438
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:50,079
psychologist named

439
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:52,639
arthur jensen published an article in

440
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:54,000
the harvard educational

441
00:16:59,350 --> 00:16:57,360
review in 1969 he had been asked to

442
00:17:02,710 --> 00:16:59,360
review

443
00:17:05,909 --> 00:17:02,720
programs that were designed

444
00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:05,919
to help disadvantaged children

445
00:17:11,750 --> 00:17:09,120
close the gap on cognitive testing

446
00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:11,760
it had been known for decades that many

447
00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:12,240
uh

448
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:15,360
disadvantaged children start this was

449
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:18,640
before head start head start

450
00:17:24,069 --> 00:17:20,799
started just about the time but it was

451
00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:24,079
too new to be included in his evaluation

452
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:27,039
but there were demonstration projects

453
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:28,880
that helped lead to that

454
00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:31,200
head start and some of those

455
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:32,320
demonstration

456
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:35,360
projects were claiming

457
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:38,720
gigantic increases in children's

458
00:17:44,590 --> 00:17:42,240
iq after an intervention

459
00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:44,600
right after what they called

460
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:45,760
compensatory

461
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:48,799
education and it was like

462
00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:50,480
remarkable one of them was actually

463
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:53,200
called the miracle in milwaukee

464
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:56,160
right and jensen was asked by the

465
00:18:01,990 --> 00:17:58,640
editors of the harvard educational

466
00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:02,000
review to get the data look into it and

467
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:03,360
and just see

468
00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:05,520
what was going on because these these

469
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:07,440
reports were so

470
00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:10,799
phenomenal and encouraging and supported

471
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:11,440
what almost

472
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:14,559
every psychologist at the time believed

473
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:17,440
that that gaps in cognitive testing were

474
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:20,400
due entirely to being disadvantaged

475
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:26,950
compensate for the disadvantage

476
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:29,760
those gaps would go away and that's why

477
00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:34,000
they called it compensatory education

478
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:36,400
and what jensen found as he actually got

479
00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:37,840
data and looked into

480
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:41,600
this that from a statistical

481
00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:42,960
psychometric point of view

482
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,000
none of the claims held up none of them

483
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:48,320
and it was very disappointing but then

484
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:50,559
he went further and said look

485
00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:53,280
the fact that intelligence seems to be

486
00:18:56,789 --> 00:18:53,600
so

487
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,799
resistant to efforts to improve it by

488
00:19:02,870 --> 00:18:58,799
making environmental education

489
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:02,880
changes this suggests that genetics

490
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:05,440
plays a more powerful role in

491
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:08,640
intelligence differences among people

492
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:12,320
than we have considered before

493
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:15,520
and that was bad enough but then he went

494
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:18,559
further and applied that reasoning to

495
00:19:22,789 --> 00:19:19,840
the well-known

496
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:22,799
historical average difference between

497
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:25,840
black students and white students

498
00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:28,320
so jensen did that jensen did that all

499
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:30,160
in this one article it's over a hundred

500
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:31,600
pages long

501
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:35,039
and it's technical and he basically

502
00:19:40,710 --> 00:19:39,039
said we should consider as a hypothesis

503
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:40,720
that part of this average group

504
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:43,120
difference might be due to genetics

505
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:46,559
he didn't conclude it he didn't state it

506
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:49,280
he said this is uh some hypothesis we

507
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:50,000
should

508
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:53,440
consider he then went on to say in part

509
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:55,120
of the article that no one ever

510
00:20:01,510 --> 00:19:58,640
cites that what this might mean

511
00:20:03,190 --> 00:20:01,520
is that education has to be tailored to

512
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:03,200
individual students

513
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:05,760
strengths and weaknesses so that every

514
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:07,520
student can benefit

515
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:10,640
from the to maximize their education by

516
00:20:13,270 --> 00:20:12,480
concentrating on their strengths

517
00:20:16,149 --> 00:20:13,280
essentially

518
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:16,159
i think i cite that concluding paragraph

519
00:20:19,909 --> 00:20:16,799
in the book

520
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:19,919
you held up well anyway this created a

521
00:20:25,029 --> 00:20:21,600
firestorm because all people

522
00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:25,039
heard was compensatory education doesn't

523
00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:25,600
work

524
00:20:31,110 --> 00:20:28,799
because uh intelligence is

525
00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:31,120
genetic and so is the black and white

526
00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:33,039
differences due to genetics

527
00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:35,360
and since genetics is deterministic and

528
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:37,360
we can't do anything about it

529
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:40,480
it means that at least one group is

530
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:43,600
genetically inferior and you can imagine

531
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:47,440
that this went over very poorly

532
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:50,480
jensen uh was hounded for this

533
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:53,280
he couldn't speak at a meeting of the

534
00:20:57,029 --> 00:20:55,600
american psychological association he

535
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:57,039
couldn't give an address

536
00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:59,679
i actually went as a student to hear him

537
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:01,520
and the room was cleared because of a

538
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:04,080
bomb threat

539
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,200
and he had to basically uh

540
00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:09,360
have the university police escort him

541
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:11,360
around the berkeley campus

542
00:21:14,549 --> 00:21:14,080
his mail was checked by the police i

543
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:14,559
mean

544
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:17,039
you can't really imagine the backlash

545
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:18,480
against this article

546
00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:21,360
and against the view that we should

547
00:21:25,029 --> 00:21:24,000
consider the hypothesis that genetics

548
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,039
had something

549
00:21:29,110 --> 00:21:27,760
to do with average group differences

550
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:29,120
it's still

551
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:32,880
a hot button issue today we need to

552
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:35,039
make clear for the people listening that

553
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:36,159
during the course of this

554
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:37,440
conversation when we're talking about

555
00:21:39,750 --> 00:21:39,039
intelligence it may seem as if we're

556
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:39,760
saying that

557
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:42,159
because having more intelligence seems

558
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:43,440
to be better overall

559
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:46,640
it increases your we can talk about the

560
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:50,320
the benefits later that if you have low

561
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:52,080
intelligence then you're lesser of a

562
00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:54,640
human or that you're worth less

563
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:57,120
no intelligence researcher that i know

564
00:22:01,110 --> 00:21:58,400
and i know

565
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:01,120
a quite a number of them has ever

566
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,200
entertained that thought

567
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:05,520
i don't there are people who clearly

568
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:07,120
believe right i'm just saying that

569
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:09,039
there's the perception that when we talk

570
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:11,039
about something like this that we're

571
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:13,280
holding that belief unstable part of

572
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:16,159
what intelligence researchers have to do

573
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:19,520
is just say how silly that belief

574
00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:22,720
would be so having uh

575
00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:25,840
low and we haven't really talked about

576
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:26,400
it

577
00:22:29,909 --> 00:22:28,559
what intelligence is right we have to

578
00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:29,919
define it we have to delineate it

579
00:22:33,190 --> 00:22:30,559
between

580
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:33,200
iq intelligence and g factor yeah for

581
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,960
the purposes of this conversation

582
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:36,400
intelligence is very

583
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:40,080
narrowly defined as a general ability

584
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:42,159
that underlies all other mental

585
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:43,200
abilities

586
00:22:47,909 --> 00:22:46,320
it's not one particular thing it's a

587
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:47,919
general ability

588
00:22:54,789 --> 00:22:51,919
is not the only

589
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:54,799
aspect of intelligence but it turns out

590
00:22:59,990 --> 00:22:56,640
to be the most predictive

591
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:00,000
of academic success job success

592
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:02,640
and life success in general that's why

593
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:05,200
most intelligence researchers focus on

594
00:23:18,149 --> 00:23:06,320
it

595
00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:18,159
measure of intelligence like there is

596
00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:18,720
for

597
00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:22,480
uh temperature or distance

598
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:25,600
so as i explained in the book

599
00:23:32,149 --> 00:23:29,280
ten feet is exactly twice

600
00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:32,159
as long as five feet right a ratio

601
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:32,640
measure

602
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:36,480
of 140 is not twice as smart as an iq

603
00:23:39,350 --> 00:23:37,440
with 70.

604
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:39,360
it's a different metric there is no

605
00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:42,480
metric in intelligence research

606
00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:45,600
comparable to weight or distance

607
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,240
is there a weight scale is there a way

608
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:50,640
to develop the ratio scale with

609
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:53,679
chronometry people that is assessing

610
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:55,039
reaction time

611
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:56,960
people we're getting ahead of the story

612
00:24:01,510 --> 00:23:58,480
but people have

613
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:01,520
have dreamed about that so far it

614
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:04,480
hasn't come to fruition reaction time is

615
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:05,840
a possibility

616
00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:09,039
because 500 milliseconds is

617
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:12,880
twice as slow as 250 milliseconds

618
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:16,000
and reaction time to brain events has

619
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:17,279
been used

620
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:20,240
but so far it's and it is correlated

621
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:20,559
with

622
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:23,279
iq scores and other measures of

623
00:24:26,950 --> 00:24:24,400
intelligence

624
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:26,960
but so far it hasn't really broken

625
00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:28,000
through as an

626
00:24:34,549 --> 00:24:31,200
independent or alternative measure

627
00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:34,559
of general intelligence but even with

628
00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:36,320
the limitations we have

629
00:24:41,029 --> 00:24:39,039
of estimating general intelligence

630
00:24:43,110 --> 00:24:41,039
researchers have still learned a lot

631
00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:43,120
about what intelligence is and where it

632
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:44,240
comes from

633
00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:47,279
if you score low on an iq test

634
00:24:51,669 --> 00:24:49,840
uh and because you don't have this

635
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:51,679
generalized ability

636
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:53,760
it means absolutely nothing about your

637
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:55,279
quality of

638
00:25:02,710 --> 00:24:59,200
what kind of person you are

639
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:02,720
you can be a kind person you can be

640
00:25:10,549 --> 00:25:06,240
a loyal person you can be a likable

641
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:10,559
person you can be a friendly person

642
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:12,880
and on the opposite end you can have a

643
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:20,470
so i think part of the problem

644
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:24,000
is that many people who are interested

645
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:24,799
in iq

646
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:28,080
or discuss it don't

647
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:31,360
have personal experience

648
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:34,720
with people at the lower end

649
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:37,919
unless you have a relative or you grew

650
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:39,440
up with somebody

651
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:43,840
with a with an iq of around 80 or less

652
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:46,159
you have no idea what life is like for

653
00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:47,679
them

654
00:25:55,669 --> 00:25:52,240
and and how difficult it is somebody

655
00:25:59,510 --> 00:25:55,679
wants a defined uh

656
00:26:01,269 --> 00:25:59,520
life uh everyday life is a is an iq test

657
00:26:03,909 --> 00:26:01,279
just navigating the trials and

658
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:03,919
tribulations of everyday life

659
00:26:10,470 --> 00:26:06,960
uh probably most of the people you know

660
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:10,480
are at the higher end of the spectrum

661
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:12,720
and if your average iq most of the

662
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:13,520
people you know

663
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:16,960
are you know plus or minus uh

664
00:26:20,149 --> 00:26:19,120
and you don't really know what it's like

665
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:20,159
to have an iq

666
00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:23,760
of of 80 or even 85 and i

667
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:26,480
people with iqs of 85 and less are the

668
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:28,159
lower 16

669
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:34,240
so if you think about iq as a percentile

670
00:26:40,710 --> 00:26:37,440
you know if you have an iq of 130

671
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:40,720
you're in about the top two percent

672
00:26:48,310 --> 00:26:44,640
people if if you have an iq

673
00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:48,320
of of 85 or less you're in the bottom

674
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:51,440
16th percentile and people

675
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:55,360
in that range with some exceptions

676
00:27:02,230 --> 00:26:58,480
find it very difficult to have

677
00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:02,240
the kind of employment that pays enough

678
00:27:06,549 --> 00:27:04,159
to be self-sufficient they're

679
00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:06,559
chronically underemployed

680
00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:09,760
okay is this a problem

681
00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:12,960
well the 16th percentile in the united

682
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:16,960
states with 320 million some odd people

683
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:19,840
this means over 50 million people in the

684
00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:27,430
this is a problem it's not a problem

685
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:29,120
because they're bad people it's not a

686
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:31,120
problem because they're lazy people

687
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:33,600
it's not a problem for any negative

688
00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:35,600
reason about them through no fault of

689
00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:36,720
their own

690
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:39,760
they have mental abilities that

691
00:27:43,909 --> 00:27:42,480
limit their participation in modern

692
00:27:46,310 --> 00:27:43,919
society

693
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:46,320
so what do you what how can you help

694
00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:48,080
this well there are two ways you can

695
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:48,640
provide

696
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:51,520
safety nets i mean this is partly the

697
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:53,679
reason i've come around to the universal

698
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:55,520
basic income idea

699
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:58,159
that there are some people who really

700
00:28:00,549 --> 00:27:58,640
really

701
00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:00,559
need this and through no fault of their

702
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:02,000
own just can't earn

703
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:05,039
enough to be self-efficient but the

704
00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:06,799
other way to approach it

705
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:09,679
is to say well what can we do to raise

706
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:10,960
iq

707
00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:13,039
what can we do to increase people's

708
00:28:18,149 --> 00:28:14,640
general ability

709
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:18,159
is there anything compensatory education

710
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:21,279
doesn't work it's been tried you know

711
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:23,279
jensen said it didn't work based on what

712
00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:25,440
he did in 1969

713
00:28:31,029 --> 00:28:28,559
here we are 50 years later there have

714
00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:31,039
been all kinds of compensatory education

715
00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:33,360
programs including head start

716
00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:37,039
and others and they do

717
00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:39,360
some positive things you get positive

718
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:40,159
outcomes

719
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:43,279
from them they're worth doing

720
00:28:50,389 --> 00:28:46,320
but one of the positive outcomes is not

721
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:50,399
increasing their iq right q of students

722
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:53,600
so and we don't call it compensatory

723
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:55,200
education anymore

724
00:29:02,389 --> 00:28:58,880
we call it early childhood education

725
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:02,399
completely change in in name partly as a

726
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:03,600
recognition that it

727
00:29:07,909 --> 00:29:06,640
failed to increase iq is there anything

728
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:07,919
we can do to increase

729
00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:10,880
iq in my view when i go through this

730
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:12,000
chapter and verse in

731
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:15,360
the book so far nothing has worked

732
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:18,320
many claims about memory training

733
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:20,000
computer games

734
00:29:27,149 --> 00:29:23,520
in my view the way to increase iq

735
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,159
will come from an understanding of the

736
00:29:31,029 --> 00:29:29,360
neuroscience and genetics of

737
00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:31,039
intelligence

738
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:34,080
and ironically the more differences

739
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:34,960
among people

740
00:29:40,269 --> 00:29:38,240
in intelligence are genetic

741
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:40,279
that means there's an underlying

742
00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:42,320
biochemistry

743
00:29:47,029 --> 00:29:46,399
which is ironic because in the 21st

744
00:29:49,350 --> 00:29:47,039
century

745
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:49,360
we are learning how to manipulate that

746
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:50,320
kind of bio

747
00:29:56,630 --> 00:29:53,520
that kind of neurochemistry

748
00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:56,640
and that tells me that it's going to be

749
00:29:59,510 --> 00:29:57,360
possible

750
00:30:02,950 --> 00:29:59,520
once we have a better understanding of

751
00:30:06,830 --> 00:30:02,960
the of the neuroscience of intelligence

752
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:06,840
to use neuroscience methods to develop

753
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:09,760
interventions possibly medications or

754
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:10,640
drugs

755
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:14,799
that would increase iq that's the ironic

756
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:15,520
part

757
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,840
people think that if intelligence is

758
00:30:21,590 --> 00:30:19,440
genetic it's immutable

759
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,600
can change that's the wrong way to look

760
00:30:26,110 --> 00:30:23,600
at genetics

761
00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:26,120
genetics is probabilistic not

762
00:30:30,310 --> 00:30:28,640
necessarily deterministic

763
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:30,320
and if you can manipulate those

764
00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:32,399
probabilities by

765
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:34,960
manipulating somewhere in the cascade of

766
00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:37,600
events between a gene turning on

767
00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:39,440
and something happening in the brain

768
00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:41,440
there's a thousand steps

769
00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:43,440
a thousand neurochemical steps in

770
00:30:48,830 --> 00:30:45,039
between and many

771
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:48,840
interactions of other genes and other uh

772
00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:51,840
uh you know events in the brain

773
00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:54,720
um if you we get some understanding of

774
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:55,600
that

775
00:31:01,110 --> 00:30:59,039
we can possibly intervene to increase

776
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,120
intelligence dramatically

777
00:31:04,230 --> 00:31:03,279
that's why i say in the beginning of the

778
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:04,240
book

779
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:07,679
in my view the ultimate purpose of

780
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:10,000
intelligence research

781
00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:12,960
is to be able to increase intelligence

782
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:15,200
that's why we do this kind of research

783
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:16,960
it's somewhat controversial point of

784
00:31:25,029 --> 00:31:24,149
does brain training like lumosity and so

785
00:31:27,669 --> 00:31:25,039
on those

786
00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:27,679
games do they help with it with an

787
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:29,120
increase in iq

788
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:32,640
no okay

789
00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:35,760
how about paracetam that's a nootropic

790
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:38,000
some people say it increases their iq

791
00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:39,919
have you heard any research on that

792
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:43,120
i've seen no research on

793
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:46,960
neurotropic drugs brain training

794
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:51,200
computer games that suggests an increase

795
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:54,320
of the general intellectual ability

796
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:55,200
factor the g

797
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:58,559
factor what about dual n-back training i

798
00:32:01,509 --> 00:32:00,080
heard that that was associated with an

799
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:01,519
increase in working memory i think you

800
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:03,360
do outline that in the book itself

801
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:06,960
the original study was extremely flawed

802
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:09,679
i go through it in the book subsequent

803
00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:10,320
studies

804
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:13,840
are less flawed but the only people that

805
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,399
seem to

806
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:17,279
replicate the finding at all are the

807
00:32:21,509 --> 00:32:19,440
original researchers

808
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:21,519
that independent researchers have

809
00:32:25,269 --> 00:32:23,440
essentially been unable to replicate

810
00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:25,279
this finding and even the original

811
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:26,480
researchers

812
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:28,720
have kind of backed off the claim that

813
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:30,240
they're changing

814
00:32:36,710 --> 00:32:34,000
intelligence

815
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,720
it might be that such training increases

816
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:38,720
attention

817
00:32:46,389 --> 00:32:42,880
maybe makes visual spatial

818
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:46,399
ability go up a little bit not so clear

819
00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:49,120
but in terms of really affecting what we

820
00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:49,760
call

821
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:52,080
the general intelligence factor which is

822
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:52,799
the core

823
00:32:57,029 --> 00:32:56,480
key factor i don't know any evidence of

824
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:57,039
it

825
00:33:01,269 --> 00:32:58,960
uh i've gone on record saying the

826
00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:01,279
original report was like the original

827
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:02,320
report of cold

828
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:05,360
fusion it was done by people

829
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:08,399
who were really not experts in the field

830
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:11,679
and uh kind of over hyped their own uh

831
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:14,640
data and and the original report was

832
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:16,880
seriously flawed

833
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:18,720
how about electromagnetic stimulation

834
00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:20,960
like transcranial direct current

835
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:24,000
and there's a lot of pemf like like this

836
00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:27,360
little device oh you have one this isn't

837
00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:30,880
uh a tdcs one this is a p

838
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:34,320
e m f it's neo rhythm i don't find that

839
00:33:37,269 --> 00:33:35,440
it makes me any

840
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:37,279
any brighter in the least but i wear it

841
00:33:42,070 --> 00:33:39,200
when i'm trying to concentrate

842
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:42,080
has there been any research i don't know

843
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:44,880
research on that particular device

844
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:48,080
the last time i reviewed the

845
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:51,360
brain stimulation research uh

846
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:53,679
the evidence there was some positive

847
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:55,679
evidence but the weight of evidence

848
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:57,919
seemed to be negative

849
00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:01,200
negative thing oh okay okay

850
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:03,760
it decreased your iq uh there was one

851
00:34:06,070 --> 00:34:04,399
study that

852
00:34:08,629 --> 00:34:06,080
that claimed a decrease but that was

853
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:08,639
only one study

854
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:10,720
i don't know that there has been an

855
00:34:15,349 --> 00:34:12,079
evolving weight of

856
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:15,359
of evidence um you know this

857
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:18,079
transcranial magnetic stimulation and

858
00:34:21,589 --> 00:34:19,359
other

859
00:34:22,869 --> 00:34:21,599
ways to stimulate the brain they're very

860
00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:22,879
interesting

861
00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:25,520
uh they should do something but whether

862
00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:26,560
they can be used to

863
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:30,240
increase intelligence

864
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:33,520
as i have defined it right right i'm not

865
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:36,000
certain of i i don't know of any

866
00:34:39,190 --> 00:34:37,200
evidence that i would

867
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:39,200
say would would be compelling but

868
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:40,960
remember my third law it takes

869
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:43,440
many years to write this out and figure

870
00:34:47,829 --> 00:34:44,480
it out

871
00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:47,839
um i i don't recommend meanwhile that

872
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:49,599
people make their own devices to

873
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:51,520
stimulate their own brains

874
00:34:55,510 --> 00:34:54,480
like some gamers were doing a few years

875
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:55,520
ago

876
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:58,320
i myself would not do that i heard that

877
00:35:01,829 --> 00:34:59,280
darpa uses

878
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:01,839
tdsc for sniper training that it

879
00:35:05,190 --> 00:35:03,200
increases their rate of learning which

880
00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:05,200
to me seems like it would increase your

881
00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:07,280
crystalline intelligence have you seen

882
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:08,880
any results that are solid in that

883
00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:09,599
domain

884
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:11,599
i know the people who did that or at

885
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:13,520
least did some of that original research

886
00:35:16,870 --> 00:35:15,119
it's very interesting

887
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:16,880
interesting research i guess darpa

888
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:18,720
decided not to pursue it

889
00:35:25,109 --> 00:35:22,240
i don't think the effects were very big

890
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:25,119
and they were effects on really

891
00:35:29,430 --> 00:35:26,720
increasing the speed

892
00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:29,440
that analysts could learn material or

893
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:30,400
increase

894
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:33,680
the speed that image analog

895
00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:35,200
that people that were doing image

896
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:36,800
analysis that humans

897
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:39,839
doing image analysis could could do

898
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:43,520
more of it in a shorter period of time

899
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:45,520
but again in terms of increasing

900
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:46,960
intelligence

901
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:49,040
these are these are interesting research

902
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:53,440
questions i don't rule it out but so far

903
00:35:56,550 --> 00:35:54,880
let me put it this way if there was

904
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:56,560
something i knew about that could

905
00:36:01,750 --> 00:35:58,800
increase my intelligence

906
00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:01,760
i'd be using it right something that's

907
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,320
interesting

908
00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:04,560
is that there's a study i think it's in

909
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,720
the book a fairly established phenomenon

910
00:36:09,430 --> 00:36:08,160
is that the nucleus accumbens the

911
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:09,440
caudate the putamen

912
00:36:13,829 --> 00:36:11,440
the morphology of it is associated with

913
00:36:16,069 --> 00:36:13,839
an increase or a high rate of

914
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:16,079
fluid intelligence but only in the right

915
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:18,240
hemisphere

916
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:22,000
all of this research on localization

917
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:25,040
or identifying parts of the brain that

918
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:26,400
are related to

919
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:29,119
intelligence test scores this is

920
00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:30,480
something we started

921
00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:35,119
in 1988 it's been done a lot

922
00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:38,480
but as i pointed out even in 1988

923
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:40,720
finding these little spots in the brain

924
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:41,599
where there's some

925
00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:44,400
connection to intelligence that's just

926
00:36:48,069 --> 00:36:46,079
the starting point

927
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:48,079
you have to find out what it is about

928
00:36:53,349 --> 00:36:49,599
those spots

929
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:53,359
is it more neurons more dendrites

930
00:36:58,950 --> 00:36:56,560
different kinds of neurons more glial

931
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:58,960
cells you know what's going on in those

932
00:37:02,870 --> 00:36:59,680
areas

933
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:02,880
and moreover it's probably

934
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:05,280
as important to know how those areas

935
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:07,200
communicate with each other

936
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:10,000
right that's your p-fit model the p-4

937
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:11,040
the pariah

938
00:37:17,589 --> 00:37:14,480
parietal frontal integration theory

939
00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:17,599
where based on uh all the imaging

940
00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:20,400
studies we could find in 2007.

941
00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:23,839
actually 2006 it was published in 2007

942
00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:26,320
all the imaging studies of reasoning or

943
00:37:29,270 --> 00:37:27,440
intelligence

944
00:37:31,990 --> 00:37:29,280
we looked at all the brain areas that

945
00:37:35,109 --> 00:37:32,000
were implicated we looked at pet studies

946
00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:35,119
we looked at fmri studies

947
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:38,240
and uh the way we looked at this

948
00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:40,400
these findings you know in all the

949
00:37:43,750 --> 00:37:42,480
studies we had different nomenclature

950
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:43,760
and different

951
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:50,000
but the commonalities we could find seem

952
00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:50,880
to implicate

953
00:37:55,349 --> 00:37:54,560
areas mostly in the frontal and parietal

954
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:55,359
lobes

955
00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:59,040
not exclusively but mostly and so we

956
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:01,359
develop what we call the parietal

957
00:38:06,790 --> 00:38:03,680
frontal integration theory

958
00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:06,800
of how information flowed around those

959
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,079
areas

960
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:10,400
that would be related to individual

961
00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:11,520
differences

962
00:38:18,390 --> 00:38:14,960
in intelligence that some people might

963
00:38:22,150 --> 00:38:18,400
have white matter or dendrites

964
00:38:25,190 --> 00:38:22,160
or even mitochondria something different

965
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:25,200
that would allow information to flow

966
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:28,240
more efficiently while people were

967
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:31,280
processing problem solving

968
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:33,440
and that they would could pro they could

969
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:34,320
problem solve

970
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:37,520
better and faster than other people

971
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:40,240
and this at the time there was no way to

972
00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:40,640
go

973
00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:44,079
to really measure information flow

974
00:38:47,109 --> 00:38:46,160
you could do it indirectly with reaction

975
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:47,119
time

976
00:38:51,550 --> 00:38:49,920
subsequently with fmri and something

977
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:51,560
called

978
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:53,680
magnetoencephalograph

979
00:39:00,710 --> 00:38:57,200
you could get such measurements now fmri

980
00:39:01,829 --> 00:39:00,720
connectivity analysis is looking at this

981
00:39:03,349 --> 00:39:01,839
kind of thing

982
00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:03,359
these are techniques that were not

983
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:05,680
available in 2007

984
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:07,200
this is partly why i said at the

985
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:09,280
beginning that the technology

986
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:12,400
is is moving ahead so quickly and

987
00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:14,000
allowing you to ask questions

988
00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:16,000
you couldn't really you could ask them

989
00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:18,160
you couldn't really answer before

990
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:20,320
so now they're the people doing the most

991
00:39:24,069 --> 00:39:21,839
interesting intelligence

992
00:39:25,430 --> 00:39:24,079
research with brain imaging are the

993
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:25,440
people looking at

994
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:27,920
how brain areas are connected to each

995
00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:29,040
other

996
00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:32,320
with white matter and how information

997
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:36,160
flows around those areas using

998
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:39,359
functional mri

999
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:41,920
and a lot of it is while the person is

1000
00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:42,880
just resting

1001
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:45,359
with their eyes closed but it's going to

1002
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:46,560
be more interesting

1003
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:48,960
as this research is done while the

1004
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:52,480
person is solving cognitive tasks

1005
00:39:55,990 --> 00:39:55,280
so there's a lot of interesting things

1006
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:56,000
um

1007
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:58,000
i don't like like to focus too much on

1008
00:40:03,990 --> 00:40:00,640
the old p fit because that was

1009
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,000
you know that's 13 years ago and since

1010
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:06,000
then we have a lot more information

1011
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:08,480
the general pfit model seems to be

1012
00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:10,000
holding up well

1013
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:12,880
right just minor modifications frontal

1014
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:13,760
areas are

1015
00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:16,240
implicated and how they communicate

1016
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:17,760
seems to be important

1017
00:40:21,109 --> 00:40:20,720
to help explain individual differences

1018
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:21,119
in

1019
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:25,839
hemispheric differences so for example

1020
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:26,960
let's say the left

1021
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,880
dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex is more

1022
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:30,240
important than

1023
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:32,400
the right there seem to be some

1024
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:35,200
hemispheric differences i don't

1025
00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:37,200
know that they've replicated all that

1026
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:39,680
much one of the most surprising things

1027
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:42,000
to me when we first started doing brain

1028
00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:42,960
imaging

1029
00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:46,160
was the lack of hemispheric differences

1030
00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:47,680
that you know everyone talks about the

1031
00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:49,359
left hemisphere does this the right

1032
00:40:53,670 --> 00:40:50,400
hemisphere

1033
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:53,680
does that the truth mostly

1034
00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:56,000
i believe is in the communication

1035
00:41:01,510 --> 00:40:58,319
between the hemispheres

1036
00:41:03,510 --> 00:41:01,520
that almost nothing is exclusively left

1037
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:03,520
or right

1038
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:05,520
you know there are some language areas

1039
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:08,640
that are predominantly on the left

1040
00:41:11,829 --> 00:41:10,720
we know this when people have strokes in

1041
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:11,839
certain areas

1042
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:15,040
lose some

1043
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:18,319
some verbal abilities

1044
00:41:23,589 --> 00:41:21,440
but by and large i'm i'm

1045
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:23,599
i'm underwhelmed at the hemispheric

1046
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:25,520
findings so far

1047
00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:27,520
yeah what i found unintuitive was that

1048
00:41:30,309 --> 00:41:29,520
the weaker inter-hemispheric homotopic

1049
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:30,319
connections

1050
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:32,960
were correlated with iq that was one

1051
00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:34,400
study a

1052
00:41:38,950 --> 00:41:37,680
study out of harvard um needs some

1053
00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:38,960
replication

1054
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:42,240
and now um one of the interesting things

1055
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:43,520
that's happening

1056
00:41:50,309 --> 00:41:47,119
is there are so many different a net

1057
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:50,319
brain image analysis techniques being

1058
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:51,760
developed

1059
00:41:56,230 --> 00:41:54,640
that one of the problems is that if you

1060
00:41:58,950 --> 00:41:56,240
use a certain analysis

1061
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:58,960
technique you find one thing and if you

1062
00:42:02,470 --> 00:41:59,760
use a

1063
00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:02,480
different technique on the same data set

1064
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:04,720
you come up with some differences

1065
00:42:09,109 --> 00:42:08,240
this has to be sorted out by by people

1066
00:42:12,150 --> 00:42:09,119
who develop

1067
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:12,160
these analysis techniques this is not

1068
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:13,680
unique to brain imaging

1069
00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:15,680
this is what happened with eeg

1070
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:16,960
technology

1071
00:42:20,069 --> 00:42:18,880
you know this group did it this way that

1072
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:20,079
group connected

1073
00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:22,400
uh corrected for artifacts in a

1074
00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:24,560
different way they had different results

1075
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:27,440
this will be sorted out over time i

1076
00:42:30,870 --> 00:42:28,160
think uh

1077
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:30,880
you just have to be patient and what's

1078
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:31,359
really

1079
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:34,560
nice now we've reached a stage where

1080
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:36,240
brain imaging studies with the

1081
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:37,839
connectome had

1082
00:42:43,670 --> 00:42:41,119
they tend to have very large samples

1083
00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:43,680
and the publications often will have a

1084
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:45,280
discovery sample

1085
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:48,480
and a cross-validation sample

1086
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:50,800
now we're really getting into some great

1087
00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:52,880
science

1088
00:42:56,390 --> 00:42:54,880
i also heard that the thickness of the

1089
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:56,400
corpus callosum is

1090
00:43:01,990 --> 00:43:00,480
related to iq not inversely

1091
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:02,000
but that seems to go against the inter

1092
00:43:07,829 --> 00:43:04,079
hemisphere connection in my estimation

1093
00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:07,839
now the quantity yeah that's those are

1094
00:43:12,309 --> 00:43:09,920
that's the bundle of fibers that connect

1095
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:12,319
the right and left hemispheres

1096
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:16,319
in some people it's bigger than others

1097
00:43:20,790 --> 00:43:18,800
it seems to be bigger i think in women

1098
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:20,800
than in men

1099
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,880
so what all these differences mean are

1100
00:43:27,430 --> 00:43:24,720
not yet clear there's there's

1101
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:27,440
some conflicting data on the corpus

1102
00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:28,319
callosum

1103
00:43:34,710 --> 00:43:31,440
intelligence relationship

1104
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:34,720
but if you step back when you know when

1105
00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:35,920
i started studying

1106
00:43:42,309 --> 00:43:39,599
intelligence in the 1970s

1107
00:43:43,109 --> 00:43:42,319
the big question was are genetics

1108
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:43,119
involved

1109
00:43:50,150 --> 00:43:46,720
or not now we're finding

1110
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:50,160
genes you know we're

1111
00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:53,040
much more sophisticated a big question

1112
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:53,839
was are

1113
00:44:00,150 --> 00:43:56,880
our iq scores meaningful or are they

1114
00:44:03,829 --> 00:44:00,160
random numbers basically well we

1115
00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:03,839
know that iq scores correlate to brain

1116
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:07,680
parameters like thickness of the cortex

1117
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,160
or the activity in this area or the

1118
00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:12,319
activity in that area

1119
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:15,760
so we we we've learned a tremendous

1120
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:17,040
amount

1121
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:20,640
about intelligence um

1122
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:23,760
and uh the field has really moved way

1123
00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:24,960
beyond

1124
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:28,079
uh a lot of those early questions have

1125
00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:30,160
been answered definitively

1126
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:33,200
you know genetic in about genetics for

1127
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:34,160
example

1128
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:36,880
and now we're in a very uh exciting

1129
00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:37,760
stage

1130
00:44:41,390 --> 00:44:41,040
of working out details and the details

1131
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:41,400
are

1132
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:44,480
phenomenally complex

1133
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:51,040
there are some people who say you know

1134
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:53,440
the genetics of intelligence is so

1135
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:54,880
complex we'll never

1136
00:45:00,230 --> 00:44:58,160
figure it out because there are maybe a

1137
00:45:02,309 --> 00:45:00,240
thousand genes involved and they all

1138
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:02,319
interact with each other and some of

1139
00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:05,119
them interact with environmental

1140
00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:07,520
factors that we're never going to figure

1141
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,240
this out

1142
00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:11,520
and my answer is if physicists

1143
00:45:15,190 --> 00:45:14,640
like you can figure out what happened in

1144
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:15,200
the first

1145
00:45:21,349 --> 00:45:18,640
nine nanoseconds of the big bang

1146
00:45:22,790 --> 00:45:21,359
then we can figure out these complex

1147
00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:22,800
relationships

1148
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:25,200
and the way the field is evolving in

1149
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:26,560
technology

1150
00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:29,760
and data analysis

1151
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:31,760
i think we'll get there at some point i

1152
00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:33,280
hope i live to see it

1153
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:35,599
but i don't think i think it's a finite

1154
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:37,200
problem i don't think it's an

1155
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:39,599
infinite problem right and you see that

1156
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:41,040
progress has been made so you just

1157
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:43,040
extrapolate that forward

1158
00:45:47,589 --> 00:45:46,160
in my lifetime incredible progress

1159
00:45:49,829 --> 00:45:47,599
has been made and that's why i want

1160
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:49,839
young people in their 20s and 30s doing

1161
00:45:55,829 --> 00:45:51,520
intelligence research

1162
00:45:58,230 --> 00:45:55,839
to think 40 years ahead

1163
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:58,240
what is it going to be like in 40 years

1164
00:46:01,910 --> 00:45:58,960
will we

1165
00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:01,920
have enough knowledge about the

1166
00:46:07,109 --> 00:46:04,240
neuroscience of intelligence

1167
00:46:09,670 --> 00:46:07,119
to tweak what goes on in the brain will

1168
00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:09,680
we be able to take someone with an iq of

1169
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:10,160
80

1170
00:46:17,109 --> 00:46:13,359
and get it up to 85. that would be a

1171
00:46:20,550 --> 00:46:17,119
huge change for that person

1172
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:20,560
and for a number of social problems

1173
00:46:24,710 --> 00:46:22,960
not just poverty some people are going

1174
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:24,720
to live in poverty because they

1175
00:46:29,829 --> 00:46:27,680
cannot through no fault of their own

1176
00:46:32,950 --> 00:46:29,839
compete in the modern world for

1177
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:32,960
jobs that pay enough and that's why i

1178
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:34,319
mentioned universal

1179
00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:38,160
basic income on the other hand

1180
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:42,160
imagine if you have an iq of 130

1181
00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:45,280
and you can get up to 135 you're going

1182
00:46:51,109 --> 00:46:46,960
to be more productive in your

1183
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:51,119
profession the probability will increase

1184
00:46:55,270 --> 00:46:52,880
that you'll be yes yeah yeah

1185
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:55,280
there's more the audience of course for

1186
00:46:58,390 --> 00:46:56,800
some of the people who are still like iq

1187
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,400
is just a number why don't you

1188
00:47:01,910 --> 00:47:00,240
talk about the correlates between high

1189
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:01,920
iq and then what are the life outcomes

1190
00:47:05,589 --> 00:47:02,880
and then low iq

1191
00:47:06,870 --> 00:47:05,599
like for example 100 166 times more

1192
00:47:08,829 --> 00:47:06,880
likely to drop out of high school

1193
00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:08,839
some phenomenal number if you have a

1194
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:10,079
lower

1195
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:14,480
there's really no question that for most

1196
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:17,280
metrics of success that people care

1197
00:47:22,870 --> 00:47:19,280
about

1198
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:22,880
more intelligence is better than less

1199
00:47:29,670 --> 00:47:26,400
it doesn't i'm better i don't mean

1200
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:29,680
in a um inferior superior

1201
00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:34,160
kind of moral view i mean in terms of

1202
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:36,160
increasing the probability of your

1203
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:37,440
success

1204
00:47:40,549 --> 00:47:39,359
there's no i said before there's no

1205
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:40,559
relationship

1206
00:47:47,109 --> 00:47:44,640
between moral character and iq

1207
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:47,119
no essential relation you can make

1208
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:48,240
something is there

1209
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:49,920
is there a psychometric test for moral

1210
00:47:55,349 --> 00:47:52,000
character like there is for iq

1211
00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:55,359
um there are

1212
00:48:03,430 --> 00:47:59,119
tests that measure moral maturity

1213
00:48:08,870 --> 00:48:06,390
and they can be related empirically to

1214
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:08,880
iq a little bit

1215
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:11,040
but i don't see any real practical

1216
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:12,240
relationship there

1217
00:48:16,549 --> 00:48:15,839
um so i think for the purposes of

1218
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:16,559
discussing

1219
00:48:22,470 --> 00:48:19,680
does iq have value you have to

1220
00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:22,480
put aside the idea that people with

1221
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:23,200
higher

1222
00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:26,319
iq are better than people with less high

1223
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:27,440
iq

1224
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:30,079
even though more intelligence is better

1225
00:48:33,589 --> 00:48:30,480
than

1226
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:33,599
less it's like being taller it might

1227
00:48:37,589 --> 00:48:36,640
in many circumstances be is better than

1228
00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:37,599
being

1229
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:40,000
shorter it doesn't mean that taller

1230
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:41,119
people have a higher

1231
00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:48,069
i think there's there i understand that

1232
00:48:52,549 --> 00:48:49,760
there's empirical research

1233
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:52,559
that shows that better looking people

1234
00:48:57,910 --> 00:48:54,800
are more successful

1235
00:49:00,309 --> 00:48:57,920
doesn't mean they're better in any way

1236
00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:00,319
right as far as i know i have not been a

1237
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:02,800
subject in such a study

1238
00:49:07,430 --> 00:49:06,160
but you know we take the world as we

1239
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:07,440
find it there are these

1240
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:09,839
these things that float around but in

1241
00:49:15,829 --> 00:49:12,800
terms of intelligence

1242
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:15,839
more generally is better than less okay

1243
00:49:21,190 --> 00:49:18,319
on page 168 you say

1244
00:49:22,549 --> 00:49:21,200
that to advance the field the study of

1245
00:49:24,309 --> 00:49:22,559
intelligence it can't be limited to

1246
00:49:25,750 --> 00:49:24,319
psychometric scores of the past

1247
00:49:27,829 --> 00:49:25,760
but what i'm wondering is why not

1248
00:49:28,549 --> 00:49:27,839
because the raven's advanced progressive

1249
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:28,559
matrices

1250
00:49:36,230 --> 00:49:32,480
seems to be a wonderful test of iq

1251
00:49:39,349 --> 00:49:36,240
um it is it's the ravens

1252
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:39,359
test is a matrix test where you have to

1253
00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:40,480
reason out what

1254
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:43,119
elements of the matrix are i'll overlay

1255
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:43,599
some

1256
00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:46,000
images right now for people um and

1257
00:49:50,069 --> 00:49:46,800
that's a good

1258
00:49:53,589 --> 00:49:50,079
that's a high g test not a perfect

1259
00:49:56,950 --> 00:49:53,599
g test but that it's a high g test

1260
00:49:59,589 --> 00:49:56,960
and it would be better if we could

1261
00:50:01,510 --> 00:49:59,599
could develop a ratio scale it's still a

1262
00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:01,520
cycle

1263
00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:04,079
yeah but it's a good one and people use

1264
00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:05,280
it a lot

1265
00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:08,640
and uh of course critics will say well

1266
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:10,640
who cares if you can solve this kind of

1267
00:50:13,589 --> 00:50:12,720
problem it has no relationship to the

1268
00:50:16,230 --> 00:50:13,599
real world

1269
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:16,240
but in fact empirically it does people

1270
00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:18,000
who can solve those problems

1271
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:20,319
do better at certain kinds of

1272
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:21,839
professions

1273
00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:25,200
you know not everyone uh

1274
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:29,200
competes within a profession equally

1275
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:32,319
so in physics for example

1276
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:35,920
there are really brilliant physicists

1277
00:50:42,069 --> 00:50:39,440
and just really smart physicists

1278
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:42,079
and as a physicist you probably without

1279
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:43,280
hesitation

1280
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:46,240
could name the really brilliant ones and

1281
00:50:49,990 --> 00:50:47,040
you would get

1282
00:50:51,670 --> 00:50:50,000
nearly a hundred percent agreement right

1283
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:51,680
from other physicists

1284
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:53,440
except among the brilliant ones they

1285
00:50:56,309 --> 00:50:55,599
might they might disagree who's most

1286
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:56,319
brilliant

1287
00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:59,040
right right right right now what's a

1288
00:51:01,990 --> 00:51:00,640
white matter integrity and what's its

1289
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,000
relationship to iq

1290
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:04,640
is it just defense against damage or

1291
00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:05,920
something different

1292
00:51:09,829 --> 00:51:08,640
the brain has gray matter and white

1293
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:09,839
matter the white matter

1294
00:51:13,510 --> 00:51:12,240
the gray matter is like the processing

1295
00:51:15,349 --> 00:51:13,520
parts of the brain

1296
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:15,359
the white matter are the fibers that

1297
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:17,119
connect uh

1298
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:20,000
brain areas to each other yeah and

1299
00:51:25,270 --> 00:51:22,000
they're like bundles of fibers

1300
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:25,280
literally yes so the integrity of those

1301
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:26,240
fibers

1302
00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:28,720
related to the integrity of processing

1303
00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:29,839
information

1304
00:51:34,390 --> 00:51:32,640
think about if you have a very uh if you

1305
00:51:36,069 --> 00:51:34,400
have a lot of white matter fibers

1306
00:51:38,069 --> 00:51:36,079
connecting two areas

1307
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:38,079
the communication between those two

1308
00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:40,240
areas might be more efficient

1309
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:43,760
than if you had fewer connections

1310
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:46,400
and there are a couple of studies of

1311
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:47,280
white matter

1312
00:51:53,750 --> 00:51:51,040
integrity

1313
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:53,760
uh with an imaging technology called

1314
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:54,720
diffusion

1315
00:51:59,109 --> 00:51:57,280
tensor imaging and there are some new

1316
00:52:01,270 --> 00:51:59,119
versions of that i understand that are

1317
00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:01,280
even better than the person i know about

1318
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:04,240
that's this right here yeah and it's

1319
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:04,640
that

1320
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:07,920
particular technique is excellent

1321
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:11,280
at imaging these connections

1322
00:52:15,190 --> 00:52:13,119
and you can follow these connections and

1323
00:52:16,870 --> 00:52:15,200
see what areas are connected best to

1324
00:52:20,069 --> 00:52:16,880
other areas

1325
00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:20,079
and it turns out that metrics of white

1326
00:52:23,670 --> 00:52:20,640
matter

1327
00:52:24,230 --> 00:52:23,680
integrity are correlated with things

1328
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,240
like

1329
00:52:28,950 --> 00:52:26,960
iq scores what about gray matter

1330
00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:28,960
integrity is there a measure of that

1331
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:33,599
there are measures of gray matter volume

1332
00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:36,960
the thickness of the cortex

1333
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:39,119
and some of these measures also are

1334
00:52:43,430 --> 00:52:40,160
related to

1335
00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:43,440
intelligence brain

1336
00:52:49,030 --> 00:52:46,640
size is related to intelligence

1337
00:52:50,790 --> 00:52:49,040
whether that correlation is due to more

1338
00:52:56,790 --> 00:52:50,800
neurons

1339
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:56,800
more white matter all of these things

1340
00:52:59,750 --> 00:52:57,280
are

1341
00:53:02,230 --> 00:52:59,760
being investigated with ever more

1342
00:53:04,790 --> 00:53:02,240
sophisticated techniques

1343
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:04,800
and you know the weight of evidence is

1344
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:07,040
emerging that these things seem to be

1345
00:53:12,230 --> 00:53:08,160
predictive

1346
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:12,240
the next round of research

1347
00:53:16,549 --> 00:53:14,400
levels of explanation you know we're

1348
00:53:19,430 --> 00:53:16,559
going deeper and deeper in terms of our

1349
00:53:20,790 --> 00:53:19,440
levels of explanation of these things

1350
00:53:23,750 --> 00:53:20,800
right now we're kind of still in the

1351
00:53:25,589 --> 00:53:23,760
descriptive phase

1352
00:53:27,510 --> 00:53:25,599
you also mentioned that the path length

1353
00:53:29,109 --> 00:53:27,520
of the frontal parietal connections are

1354
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:29,119
important

1355
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:31,839
now the way that so what i'm wondering

1356
00:53:34,390 --> 00:53:33,440
is why do path links differ at all

1357
00:53:36,549 --> 00:53:34,400
because there's

1358
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:36,559
there's like point a to b it seems like

1359
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:38,240
it's approximately the same

1360
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:40,400
from here to here as it is on me than

1361
00:53:44,549 --> 00:53:42,800
someone else unless it makes a curve

1362
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:44,559
or a fractal and you're talking about

1363
00:53:48,069 --> 00:53:46,400
the path length

1364
00:53:49,990 --> 00:53:48,079
connection i think you're referring to

1365
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:50,000
studies that compared

1366
00:53:56,150 --> 00:53:54,160
the path length between two nearby areas

1367
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:56,160
you can look at nearby areas and get an

1368
00:54:00,309 --> 00:53:57,200
average path

1369
00:54:01,910 --> 00:54:00,319
linked to nearby areas then you can look

1370
00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:01,920
in the same people

1371
00:54:05,990 --> 00:54:05,040
as to the average pathology of different

1372
00:54:12,309 --> 00:54:06,000
areas

1373
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:12,319
and it turns out one study showed that

1374
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:15,839
the path length to the distant

1375
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:19,440
areas which were a little weaker

1376
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:22,160
actually were more predictive of iq now

1377
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:23,040
that was one

1378
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:27,119
study so my point is that there

1379
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:28,720
are still a lot of conflicting

1380
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:30,240
information about this

1381
00:54:34,470 --> 00:54:32,720
a lot of those early studies had smaller

1382
00:54:37,829 --> 00:54:34,480
sample sizes

1383
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:37,839
there's now more sophisticated uh

1384
00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:41,040
techniques to looking at

1385
00:54:45,910 --> 00:54:44,240
these analyses so you know

1386
00:54:47,670 --> 00:54:45,920
we still don't know exactly what the

1387
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:47,680
right parameters are

1388
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:50,240
but we know we can measure brain

1389
00:54:53,750 --> 00:54:51,280
parameters

1390
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:53,760
that are somehow salient to individual

1391
00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:54,640
differences in

1392
00:55:01,270 --> 00:54:57,839
intelligence and once we figure out

1393
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:01,280
what those are and how they work

1394
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:04,400
and where they come from then that will

1395
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:05,760
open the door

1396
00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:08,400
to the possibilities of increasing

1397
00:55:12,069 --> 00:55:09,280
intelligence

1398
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:12,079
i think possibly dramatically i guess

1399
00:55:14,549 --> 00:55:12,640
what i'm

1400
00:55:16,549 --> 00:55:14,559
curious about is why do the path links

1401
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:16,559
between individuals differ at all

1402
00:55:20,309 --> 00:55:18,559
because let's just take eyebrows like

1403
00:55:21,589 --> 00:55:20,319
the distance between here and here on me

1404
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:21,599
is approximately the same

1405
00:55:25,589 --> 00:55:23,760
distance as it is from here to here on

1406
00:55:27,670 --> 00:55:25,599
you it just depends on how you define

1407
00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:27,680
here to here

1408
00:55:31,349 --> 00:55:29,839
is it just not a b line like are they

1409
00:55:33,430 --> 00:55:31,359
not connected one to the other

1410
00:55:34,390 --> 00:55:33,440
directly straight they make a good

1411
00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:34,400
question

1412
00:55:41,510 --> 00:55:37,599
but let me answer like this

1413
00:55:42,069 --> 00:55:41,520
everyone's eyebrows in relation to their

1414
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:42,079
eyes

1415
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:45,200
their mouth

1416
00:55:50,870 --> 00:55:48,640
relation to their

1417
00:55:52,789 --> 00:55:50,880
cheeks pretty much the same for

1418
00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:52,799
everybody but no two people have the

1419
00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:54,720
same face

1420
00:56:02,630 --> 00:55:58,880
right no two people have the same brains

1421
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:02,640
and right as a millimeter difference

1422
00:56:07,510 --> 00:56:05,280
in the brain make a difference i think a

1423
00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:07,520
millimeter is like a mile

1424
00:56:11,750 --> 00:56:11,200
i see i see so who knows and it's not

1425
00:56:15,829 --> 00:56:11,760
just

1426
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,839
one measurement you got trillions of

1427
00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:17,599
synapses

1428
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:20,720
and neurons and

1429
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:23,599
you know who know who's to say what

1430
00:56:28,069 --> 00:56:24,240
small

1431
00:56:31,510 --> 00:56:28,079
differences here and there might mean

1432
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:31,520
on their impact on neurotransmitter

1433
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:32,400
levels

1434
00:56:40,309 --> 00:56:36,240
on the the sensitivity of receptors

1435
00:56:42,789 --> 00:56:40,319
pre and postsynaptic receptors we really

1436
00:56:43,829 --> 00:56:42,799
don't know very much on the molecular

1437
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:43,839
level

1438
00:56:48,150 --> 00:56:46,880
about what these small physiological

1439
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:48,160
differences might

1440
00:56:53,910 --> 00:56:50,480
mean or what they might reflect they

1441
00:56:56,950 --> 00:56:53,920
might reflect deeper differences

1442
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:56,960
there is vast uncharted territory in the

1443
00:57:01,829 --> 00:56:58,319
brain

1444
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:01,839
and people who want to

1445
00:57:06,309 --> 00:57:04,319
explore that in relationship to

1446
00:57:07,829 --> 00:57:06,319
something as complex as human

1447
00:57:11,910 --> 00:57:07,839
intelligence

1448
00:57:13,670 --> 00:57:11,920
this is a formidable set of questions

1449
00:57:14,230 --> 00:57:13,680
have you heard of dissociative identity

1450
00:57:17,589 --> 00:57:14,240
disorder

1451
00:57:19,829 --> 00:57:17,599
okay

1452
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:19,839
what i'm curious about is do the

1453
00:57:23,829 --> 00:57:21,440
multiple personalities have there ever

1454
00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:23,839
been studies where one has a drastically

1455
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:26,400
higher iq than the other you know i

1456
00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:27,440
don't know the

1457
00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:30,079
answer to that i think studies of

1458
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:32,400
multiple personality disorder were

1459
00:57:36,789 --> 00:57:34,720
fashionable a while ago and i never

1460
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:36,799
really got into that literature

1461
00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:38,640
in your book you mentioned the finn

1462
00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:40,559
study of 2015 and you said it was

1463
00:57:43,910 --> 00:57:42,319
breathtaking

1464
00:57:45,750 --> 00:57:43,920
it's what you've been waiting for for 40

1465
00:57:47,270 --> 00:57:45,760
years do you mind outlining for the

1466
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:47,280
audience what that study is and then i'm

1467
00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:48,880
also curious have there been that was

1468
00:57:52,309 --> 00:57:50,640
2015.

1469
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:52,319
plenty happens in just a few years

1470
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:55,200
what's new so let's go over the fin 2015

1471
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:56,160
study and then we'll talk about what's

1472
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:57,200
new

1473
00:58:02,470 --> 00:57:59,839
okay so just as i was literally

1474
00:58:04,470 --> 00:58:02,480
finishing the book

1475
00:58:05,750 --> 00:58:04,480
and the final manuscript actually had

1476
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:05,760
been submitted

1477
00:58:10,950 --> 00:58:08,960
i asked them to send it back

1478
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:10,960
because i just sent it in a day or two

1479
00:58:14,309 --> 00:58:12,160
before

1480
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:14,319
and i wanted to add the study that i

1481
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:16,640
just read the finn study

1482
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:20,079
a group at yale

1483
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:23,280
took a database of uh

1484
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:26,640
fmri um i think it was

1485
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:28,720
now i can't remember who was fmri or

1486
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:30,000
structural mri

1487
00:58:36,349 --> 00:58:33,200
i was fmri and um

1488
00:58:38,069 --> 00:58:36,359
from the connectome project one of the

1489
00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:38,079
multi-uh

1490
00:58:43,670 --> 00:58:41,440
site collaborative consortia that are

1491
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:43,680
pooling brain imaging data

1492
00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:46,480
from from various sites into big sample

1493
00:58:48,829 --> 00:58:47,440
sizes

1494
00:58:51,910 --> 00:58:48,839
and they make it available to

1495
00:58:54,710 --> 00:58:51,920
researchers remember earlier i said we

1496
00:58:56,470 --> 00:58:54,720
not only had to pay for every scan we

1497
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:56,480
had to do them ourselves and we had to

1498
00:58:59,430 --> 00:58:57,760
buy the equipment

1499
00:59:01,349 --> 00:58:59,440
right now there are data sets now there

1500
00:59:02,710 --> 00:59:01,359
are data sets you can access with a

1501
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:02,720
thousand people

1502
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:05,520
and they got a couple hundred people and

1503
00:59:09,510 --> 00:59:06,480
they did

1504
00:59:12,230 --> 00:59:09,520
one of the early connectome analyses

1505
00:59:13,510 --> 00:59:12,240
looking at brain connections and they

1506
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:13,520
found

1507
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:16,559
and and they had data from a couple

1508
00:59:21,750 --> 00:59:16,960
hundred

1509
00:59:25,030 --> 00:59:21,760
individuals doing six different tasks

1510
00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:25,040
and what they found was the

1511
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:28,960
brain connectivity was

1512
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:31,920
essentially the same in each person

1513
00:59:37,589 --> 00:59:34,880
irrespective of what the task was

1514
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:37,599
and that you could identify and this

1515
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:39,680
connectivity was so unique

1516
00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:42,000
to that individual that it was like a

1517
00:59:46,230 --> 00:59:43,119
fingerprint

1518
00:59:49,349 --> 00:59:46,240
right and moreover

1519
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:49,359
aspects of that connectivity were

1520
00:59:55,270 --> 00:59:53,119
correlated with iq that's what was so

1521
00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:55,280
exciting to me

1522
01:00:01,030 --> 00:59:58,640
and since that time there have been

1523
01:00:02,630 --> 01:00:01,040
other connectivity studies looking at

1524
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:02,640
intelligence

1525
01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:06,000
and predicting iq

1526
01:00:12,230 --> 01:00:09,520
from the brain image connectivity data

1527
01:00:13,670 --> 01:00:12,240
i had tried to predict iq from our early

1528
01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:13,680
pet studies

1529
01:00:17,670 --> 01:00:16,960
never was successful and even from our

1530
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:17,680
early

1531
01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:20,240
mri studies our samples were just too

1532
01:00:22,710 --> 01:00:22,079
small and the individual differences

1533
01:00:25,990 --> 01:00:22,720
were too

1534
01:00:29,910 --> 01:00:26,000
big and so we never were able to cross

1535
01:00:32,789 --> 01:00:29,920
validate any of our correlations

1536
01:00:34,950 --> 01:00:32,799
but now with the connectome data the

1537
01:00:38,870 --> 01:00:34,960
sample sizes are large

1538
01:00:41,589 --> 01:00:38,880
they do cross validation and

1539
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:41,599
it's now possible to predict iq from

1540
01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:42,000
brain

1541
01:00:52,230 --> 01:00:49,030
i think the highest i've seen

1542
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:52,240
might be around 15 20 percent which

1543
01:00:56,470 --> 01:00:54,640
doesn't seem like a lot

1544
01:00:57,829 --> 01:00:56,480
but this is just the beginning of this

1545
01:01:01,030 --> 01:00:57,839
effort

1546
01:01:02,230 --> 01:01:01,040
and i think um that's why it was so

1547
01:01:04,230 --> 01:01:02,240
exciting to me

1548
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:04,240
that i always wanted to do a study where

1549
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:05,760
you could predict iq

1550
01:01:09,430 --> 01:01:08,640
from brain images and i always knew it

1551
01:01:10,470 --> 01:01:09,440
was going to

1552
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:10,480
have something to do with the

1553
01:01:15,589 --> 01:01:13,119
connectivity among brain areas

1554
01:01:16,549 --> 01:01:15,599
was always my intuition and sure enough

1555
01:01:18,870 --> 01:01:16,559
this study

1556
01:01:21,109 --> 01:01:18,880
seemed to demonstrate that and there

1557
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:21,119
have been some replications of this

1558
01:01:25,430 --> 01:01:23,119
and a lot of people almost everybody

1559
01:01:29,270 --> 01:01:25,440
working in brain imaging now

1560
01:01:31,109 --> 01:01:29,280
is working with connectivity analysis

1561
01:01:32,309 --> 01:01:31,119
so it's very exciting and what's

1562
01:01:34,789 --> 01:01:32,319
groundbreaking

1563
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:34,799
since what has been released what study

1564
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:36,160
has come out that you're like oh man

1565
01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:38,160
i've been waiting for this for 40 years

1566
01:01:42,549 --> 01:01:41,040
45 years it's not it's no one study but

1567
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:42,559
it's now that the

1568
01:01:45,829 --> 01:01:44,640
what's what's groundbreaking is the

1569
01:01:48,950 --> 01:01:45,839
ability now

1570
01:01:52,069 --> 01:01:48,960
to take large samples of people

1571
01:01:55,430 --> 01:01:52,079
with brain imaging and predict their

1572
01:01:58,309 --> 01:01:55,440
general intelligence from that

1573
01:01:58,789 --> 01:01:58,319
the optimal way is not yet clear but

1574
01:02:01,750 --> 01:01:58,799
there's

1575
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:01,760
very clever and very sophisticated

1576
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:03,599
analysis techniques

1577
01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:06,720
looking not just at the structure not

1578
01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:09,280
just its structural data how brain areas

1579
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:10,640
are structurally

1580
01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:13,119
related but how they're functionally

1581
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:15,280
related so an fmri

1582
01:02:20,069 --> 01:02:18,240
if you're doing some cognitive task and

1583
01:02:22,630 --> 01:02:20,079
this area lights up and at the same

1584
01:02:23,829 --> 01:02:22,640
time this area lights up in the same way

1585
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:23,839
those two areas are

1586
01:02:28,069 --> 01:02:27,280
functionally related they may or may not

1587
01:02:31,349 --> 01:02:28,079
be

1588
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:31,359
structurally related directly and there

1589
01:02:35,510 --> 01:02:32,480
may be multiple

1590
01:02:37,750 --> 01:02:35,520
other areas that intervene and so what

1591
01:02:40,789 --> 01:02:37,760
you have is a net where you identify a

1592
01:02:42,549 --> 01:02:40,799
network of activity and then some of

1593
01:02:45,750 --> 01:02:42,559
that network might be

1594
01:02:49,109 --> 01:02:45,760
might develop genetically some might

1595
01:02:51,829 --> 01:02:49,119
develop in genetic interaction

1596
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:51,839
with stress or other environmental

1597
01:02:56,230 --> 01:02:52,720
things as

1598
01:02:58,230 --> 01:02:56,240
when you're a child other aspects of

1599
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:58,240
that network might develop by sheer

1600
01:03:01,670 --> 01:03:00,559
luck and random factors during

1601
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:01,680
development

1602
01:03:05,589 --> 01:03:04,480
these are all possibilities but the the

1603
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:05,599
takeaway

1604
01:03:10,390 --> 01:03:09,119
is that you can predict some portion of

1605
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:10,400
iq

1606
01:03:15,190 --> 01:03:13,200
from brain images that's what is

1607
01:03:16,309 --> 01:03:15,200
exciting and we're just at the beginning

1608
01:03:20,549 --> 01:03:16,319
of that

1609
01:03:23,190 --> 01:03:20,559
besides predicting iq from dna

1610
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:23,200
just at the beginning of that as well i

1611
01:03:27,270 --> 01:03:24,400
know that each brain

1612
01:03:27,990 --> 01:03:27,280
in the imaging is unique to the point of

1613
01:03:31,109 --> 01:03:28,000
fingerprint

1614
01:03:33,349 --> 01:03:31,119
like you mentioned what about for twins

1615
01:03:34,549 --> 01:03:33,359
there are there are imaging studies that

1616
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:34,559
show that twins

1617
01:03:40,950 --> 01:03:37,920
are pretty similar but not necessarily

1618
01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:40,960
that identical twins have very similar

1619
01:03:46,549 --> 01:03:43,680
brains but not necessarily

1620
01:03:48,150 --> 01:03:46,559
a hundred percent identical you would be

1621
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:48,160
able to differentiate them based on the

1622
01:03:52,309 --> 01:03:48,640
image

1623
01:03:53,589 --> 01:03:52,319
i i think so i've never really looked at

1624
01:03:55,750 --> 01:03:53,599
it quite like that

1625
01:03:56,710 --> 01:03:55,760
but but even though they have uh

1626
01:03:59,829 --> 01:03:56,720
identical

1627
01:04:02,789 --> 01:03:59,839
genes as their brains develop

1628
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:02,799
in the womb and thereafter there are a

1629
01:04:06,710 --> 01:04:04,880
lot of random events that take place

1630
01:04:08,870 --> 01:04:06,720
that affect brain development

1631
01:04:10,309 --> 01:04:08,880
so they're going to be highly similar

1632
01:04:12,230 --> 01:04:10,319
but not necessarily

1633
01:04:15,430 --> 01:04:12,240
perfectly identical right and that's

1634
01:04:16,710 --> 01:04:15,440
something else metric is exactly

1635
01:04:19,349 --> 01:04:16,720
something else people need to keep in

1636
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:19,359
mind is genetics doesn't mean 100

1637
01:04:23,829 --> 01:04:21,440
determination

1638
01:04:26,549 --> 01:04:23,839
there is a probability it does some

1639
01:04:28,950 --> 01:04:26,559
genetic things it does so if you have

1640
01:04:30,230 --> 01:04:28,960
like hunting the gene for huntington's

1641
01:04:33,270 --> 01:04:30,240
disease

1642
01:04:36,309 --> 01:04:33,280
that's bad yeah i you know

1643
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:36,319
um but for some a complex

1644
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:40,799
trait like uh intelligence

1645
01:04:47,829 --> 01:04:44,480
um then there are so many other factors

1646
01:04:51,190 --> 01:04:47,839
that the genes become probabilistic

1647
01:04:52,309 --> 01:04:51,200
right like having genes that put you at

1648
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:52,319
higher risk for

1649
01:04:58,630 --> 01:04:55,520
heart disease you're at higher risk

1650
01:05:00,870 --> 01:04:58,640
that's probabilistic and then we know

1651
01:05:02,549 --> 01:05:00,880
there are things you can do to lower

1652
01:05:05,910 --> 01:05:02,559
your risk even though you're not

1653
01:05:07,109 --> 01:05:05,920
changing the genes so you can exercise

1654
01:05:10,390 --> 01:05:07,119
and diet

1655
01:05:15,109 --> 01:05:10,400
and other environmental factors can

1656
01:05:17,190 --> 01:05:15,119
can influence that probability

1657
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:17,200
what does it look like when a man and

1658
01:05:20,630 --> 01:05:19,440
woman have a have a baby

1659
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:20,640
i know that's a strange question what i

1660
01:05:24,789 --> 01:05:22,480
mean is like the woman has an average iq

1661
01:05:26,470 --> 01:05:24,799
the woman has an iq the man has an iq

1662
01:05:30,549 --> 01:05:26,480
does the baby then just have the average

1663
01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:33,109
generally speaking there's a statistical

1664
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:36,640
phenomenon called regression to the mean

1665
01:05:44,150 --> 01:05:40,319
so if if a tall father and a tall

1666
01:05:47,109 --> 01:05:44,160
mother have children on average their

1667
01:05:48,390 --> 01:05:47,119
children will be tall but not as tall as

1668
01:05:51,109 --> 01:05:48,400
either parent

1669
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:51,119
they're going to regress to the mean if

1670
01:05:55,349 --> 01:05:52,000
you have

1671
01:05:56,470 --> 01:05:55,359
two short parents on average their

1672
01:05:59,670 --> 01:05:56,480
children will be

1673
01:06:02,069 --> 01:05:59,680
short but not as short as the parents

1674
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:02,079
and the same with intelligence it's it's

1675
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:05,920
a general statistical phenomenon

1676
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:07,839
but you breed two smart people together

1677
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:09,599
they generally have smart kids you breed

1678
01:06:13,349 --> 01:06:11,920
to low iq people and they generally have

1679
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:13,359
low i know that's been demonstrated in

1680
01:06:18,309 --> 01:06:14,640
rats

1681
01:06:20,630 --> 01:06:18,319
generally on average

1682
01:06:21,430 --> 01:06:20,640
i mean there's a lot of qualifiers there

1683
01:06:23,430 --> 01:06:21,440
one of the

1684
01:06:26,069 --> 01:06:23,440
things about genetics that's interesting

1685
01:06:28,950 --> 01:06:26,079
is it seems to mix up

1686
01:06:29,910 --> 01:06:28,960
things even within families so you can

1687
01:06:32,950 --> 01:06:29,920
have two bright

1688
01:06:35,910 --> 01:06:32,960
parents having two children one can be

1689
01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:35,920
very bright and the other pretty average

1690
01:06:40,870 --> 01:06:37,520
and the reverse can happen

1691
01:06:43,589 --> 01:06:40,880
because you don't both each child

1692
01:06:45,190 --> 01:06:43,599
inherited a different fifty percent from

1693
01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:45,200
each parent

1694
01:06:49,270 --> 01:06:47,280
i see here at the same 50 percent yeah

1695
01:06:50,950 --> 01:06:49,280
and they interact and it's complex

1696
01:06:52,549 --> 01:06:50,960
okay so there's something called

1697
01:06:54,309 --> 01:06:52,559
acquired cervantism

1698
01:06:56,150 --> 01:06:54,319
i think there's only 20 cases in the

1699
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:56,160
world where people have had

1700
01:06:59,910 --> 01:06:57,599
brain damage and then acquired an

1701
01:07:01,349 --> 01:06:59,920
ability and still remain somewhat normal

1702
01:07:02,870 --> 01:07:01,359
you know usu you can get impaired in

1703
01:07:03,670 --> 01:07:02,880
other aspects like your social aspects

1704
01:07:05,990 --> 01:07:03,680
but

1705
01:07:07,270 --> 01:07:06,000
these 20 people or less than 20 people

1706
01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:07,280
have remained somewhat normal but

1707
01:07:09,910 --> 01:07:08,160
acquired

1708
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,920
an extraordinary ability like

1709
01:07:13,990 --> 01:07:11,520
mathematical manipulation

1710
01:07:16,470 --> 01:07:14,000
is quick with them or musical

1711
01:07:19,510 --> 01:07:16,480
memorization is rapid as well

1712
01:07:20,630 --> 01:07:19,520
what i'm wondering is have you heard of

1713
01:07:24,309 --> 01:07:20,640
any studies

1714
01:07:26,069 --> 01:07:24,319
on brain damage that has increased iq

1715
01:07:28,069 --> 01:07:26,079
that's an excellent question i've been

1716
01:07:31,349 --> 01:07:28,079
asking it for years and i've

1717
01:07:31,829 --> 01:07:31,359
never come across a case where brain

1718
01:07:35,270 --> 01:07:31,839
damage

1719
01:07:39,190 --> 01:07:35,280
resulted in increased cognitive ability

1720
01:07:41,270 --> 01:07:39,200
and this acquired savanta syndrome i'm

1721
01:07:43,029 --> 01:07:41,280
very dubious about the cases that have

1722
01:07:45,829 --> 01:07:43,039
been publicized

1723
01:07:47,270 --> 01:07:45,839
usually we don't know anything factual

1724
01:07:51,190 --> 01:07:47,280
about the history

1725
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,789
diagnosis of autism

1726
01:07:59,510 --> 01:07:57,670
i'm just very skeptical of this but i

1727
01:08:03,190 --> 01:07:59,520
don't know of any case

1728
01:08:05,430 --> 01:08:03,200
of any kind of lesion or brain damage

1729
01:08:06,870 --> 01:08:05,440
that resulted in people scoring higher

1730
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:06,880
on an iq test

1731
01:08:11,190 --> 01:08:09,440
the only exception seem to be there are

1732
01:08:14,309 --> 01:08:11,200
some cases

1733
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:14,319
of brain damage or lesions or

1734
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:18,000
frontal lobe dementia where people get

1735
01:08:23,910 --> 01:08:21,520
a bit more creative artistically right

1736
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:23,920
that seems to be a real thing even

1737
01:08:29,110 --> 01:08:25,920
though how creative it is

1738
01:08:32,149 --> 01:08:29,120
sometimes is subjective um

1739
01:08:34,630 --> 01:08:32,159
but as far as increasing intelligence is

1740
01:08:36,550 --> 01:08:34,640
i have never heard of such a case you

1741
01:08:38,229 --> 01:08:36,560
used to be a personality researcher

1742
01:08:41,269 --> 01:08:38,239
i think you started out as one was that

1743
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:41,279
correct uh yes was that in the book

1744
01:08:44,950 --> 01:08:43,440
i i researched you i don't know where i

1745
01:08:47,829 --> 01:08:44,960
found where i found it

1746
01:08:49,430 --> 01:08:47,839
but either way there's a relationship

1747
01:08:50,789 --> 01:08:49,440
between openness and intelligence and

1748
01:08:52,229 --> 01:08:50,799
there's a relationship between openness

1749
01:08:55,590 --> 01:08:52,239
and creativity

1750
01:08:59,030 --> 01:08:58,550
openness is one of the uh so-called big

1751
01:09:01,510 --> 01:08:59,040
five

1752
01:09:02,709 --> 01:09:01,520
personality factors personality

1753
01:09:04,829 --> 01:09:02,719
dimensions

1754
01:09:06,070 --> 01:09:04,839
some people are just more open to

1755
01:09:09,349 --> 01:09:06,080
experience

1756
01:09:11,990 --> 01:09:09,359
than other people and the more

1757
01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:12,000
open you are to experience that seems to

1758
01:09:16,470 --> 01:09:13,040
go with higher

1759
01:09:16,789 --> 01:09:16,480
intelligence whether that's causal or

1760
01:09:20,550 --> 01:09:16,799
just

1761
01:09:24,630 --> 01:09:20,560
correlative i don't know

1762
01:09:31,669 --> 01:09:29,590
and generally um

1763
01:09:33,430 --> 01:09:31,679
personality that's the only real

1764
01:09:34,070 --> 01:09:33,440
personality factor that seems to be

1765
01:09:36,229 --> 01:09:34,080
correlated

1766
01:09:38,550 --> 01:09:36,239
to intelligence what was the other part

1767
01:09:41,749 --> 01:09:38,560
of your question

1768
01:09:43,669 --> 01:09:41,759
okay forget that question lsd

1769
01:09:45,430 --> 01:09:43,679
is known and psychedelics in general are

1770
01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:45,440
known to increase your openness somewhat

1771
01:09:49,030 --> 01:09:47,120
maybe permanently at least three months

1772
01:09:50,709 --> 01:09:49,040
later with some of the studies

1773
01:09:52,950 --> 01:09:50,719
does that mean have there been studies

1774
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:52,960
that have demonstrated one's iq after

1775
01:09:55,990 --> 01:09:55,280
a dosage of lsd like say three months

1776
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:56,000
afterwards

1777
01:09:59,510 --> 01:09:58,080
not while they're on the trip to my

1778
01:10:02,310 --> 01:09:59,520
knowledge people

1779
01:10:03,430 --> 01:10:02,320
have talked about being more creative

1780
01:10:06,550 --> 01:10:03,440
after certain drug

1781
01:10:09,189 --> 01:10:06,560
experiences um

1782
01:10:11,030 --> 01:10:09,199
i don't know systematically if this has

1783
01:10:12,950 --> 01:10:11,040
been studied

1784
01:10:14,149 --> 01:10:12,960
it may well have been i don't i don't

1785
01:10:16,630 --> 01:10:14,159
know

1786
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:16,640
is there a relationship between iq and

1787
01:10:23,030 --> 01:10:19,120
synesthesia

1788
01:10:26,149 --> 01:10:23,040
very odd

1789
01:10:30,070 --> 01:10:26,159
condition where people

1790
01:10:33,510 --> 01:10:30,080
report seeing numbers as colors

1791
01:10:35,510 --> 01:10:33,520
or shapes it seems like the wiring of

1792
01:10:38,070 --> 01:10:35,520
the sensory parts of the brain got

1793
01:10:41,590 --> 01:10:38,080
scrambled in some way

1794
01:10:42,709 --> 01:10:41,600
it's very rare uh i'm not an expert on

1795
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:42,719
it

1796
01:10:49,750 --> 01:10:46,560
to iq

1797
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:49,760
um now homosexuality is in

1798
01:10:54,630 --> 01:10:53,040
is related to increased openness

1799
01:10:56,470 --> 01:10:54,640
and increased openness is also related

1800
01:10:56,950 --> 01:10:56,480
to an increase in iq as you mentioned

1801
01:10:58,790 --> 01:10:56,960
before

1802
01:11:00,790 --> 01:10:58,800
so does that mean have you had have you

1803
01:11:02,470 --> 01:11:00,800
seen any studies that demonstrate that

1804
01:11:05,350 --> 01:11:02,480
homosexuality is associated with higher

1805
01:11:07,030 --> 01:11:05,360
iq no

1806
01:11:09,189 --> 01:11:07,040
how about happiness the relationship

1807
01:11:12,390 --> 01:11:09,199
between intelligence and happiness

1808
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:12,400
if you think intelligence is hard to

1809
01:11:21,830 --> 01:11:18,790
happiness how happy are you right now

1810
01:11:25,110 --> 01:11:21,840
on a scale of one to ten oh

1811
01:11:27,189 --> 01:11:25,120
i'm i'm so glad to be speaking

1812
01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:27,199
i with you to flatter you too much how

1813
01:11:31,750 --> 01:11:30,400
happy were you exactly 24 hours ago on a

1814
01:11:35,189 --> 01:11:31,760
scale of one to ten

1815
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:35,199
i mean that that's about it i i'm

1816
01:11:39,030 --> 01:11:37,280
i'm sure i'm annoying some happiness

1817
01:11:42,070 --> 01:11:39,040
researchers

1818
01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:42,080
but it it's

1819
01:11:49,750 --> 01:11:46,159
a hard concept to operationalize

1820
01:11:51,990 --> 01:11:49,760
and and get a metric that's uh

1821
01:11:53,590 --> 01:11:52,000
any better than uh kind of a rating

1822
01:11:57,990 --> 01:11:53,600
scale

1823
01:12:01,189 --> 01:11:59,430
what i was thinking is that you know the

1824
01:12:03,110 --> 01:12:01,199
way that stephen hawking did

1825
01:12:05,110 --> 01:12:03,120
formulated that the early universe was a

1826
01:12:05,510 --> 01:12:05,120
singularity was just by taking a black

1827
01:12:07,270 --> 01:12:05,520
hole

1828
01:12:09,430 --> 01:12:07,280
and extra sorry taking the expansion of

1829
01:12:10,709 --> 01:12:09,440
the universe and extrapolating backwards

1830
01:12:12,149 --> 01:12:10,719
so it's like okay if we're moving

1831
01:12:13,669 --> 01:12:12,159
forward by a certain amount per year

1832
01:12:14,149 --> 01:12:13,679
then you just go back and back and back

1833
01:12:15,669 --> 01:12:14,159
and back

1834
01:12:17,189 --> 01:12:15,679
it's more complicated than that but

1835
01:12:18,550 --> 01:12:17,199
either way you get to a singularity

1836
01:12:19,990 --> 01:12:18,560
so then i was thinking about the flynn

1837
01:12:21,030 --> 01:12:20,000
effect and that's maybe three points

1838
01:12:23,350 --> 01:12:21,040
every decade

1839
01:12:24,470 --> 01:12:23,360
okay so that it's something like this

1840
01:12:26,070 --> 01:12:24,480
but it can't be

1841
01:12:28,070 --> 01:12:26,080
it can't be absolutely correct because

1842
01:12:31,350 --> 01:12:28,080
then it would mean socrates is an iq

1843
01:12:32,950 --> 01:12:31,360
of of five or minus 600. yes

1844
01:12:35,430 --> 01:12:32,960
so what are the limitations on the flynn

1845
01:12:36,470 --> 01:12:35,440
effect the flint effect is the

1846
01:12:44,790 --> 01:12:36,480
observation

1847
01:12:49,030 --> 01:12:44,800
over the uh decades of the 20th century

1848
01:12:52,149 --> 01:12:49,040
average iq scores went up

1849
01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:52,159
this was discovered because you have to

1850
01:12:59,270 --> 01:12:55,760
re-norm iq iq scores

1851
01:13:00,630 --> 01:12:59,280
are based on normative values right

1852
01:13:03,110 --> 01:13:00,640
and every once in a while you have to

1853
01:13:04,709 --> 01:13:03,120
renorm the test because the raw scores

1854
01:13:08,470 --> 01:13:04,719
are going up

1855
01:13:11,189 --> 01:13:08,480
and that's called the flint effect and

1856
01:13:13,830 --> 01:13:11,199
whether whether you can extrapolate back

1857
01:13:16,390 --> 01:13:13,840
whether this has been a constant thing

1858
01:13:17,430 --> 01:13:16,400
unlikely whether you can extrapolate

1859
01:13:19,430 --> 01:13:17,440
into the future

1860
01:13:21,270 --> 01:13:19,440
unlikely because there are recent

1861
01:13:21,910 --> 01:13:21,280
studies that show the flynn effect is

1862
01:13:25,350 --> 01:13:21,920
largely

1863
01:13:27,990 --> 01:13:25,360
stopped interesting

1864
01:13:28,709 --> 01:13:28,000
and was it related to sorry was it

1865
01:13:30,790 --> 01:13:28,719
related to

1866
01:13:32,229 --> 01:13:30,800
increasing nutrition like the bottom

1867
01:13:35,430 --> 01:13:32,239
lifted right

1868
01:13:38,709 --> 01:13:35,440
that is one hypothesis that seems to be

1869
01:13:41,750 --> 01:13:38,719
a good one plus

1870
01:13:45,830 --> 01:13:41,760
there uh is better schooling people

1871
01:13:46,550 --> 01:13:45,840
kids are more exposed to visual spatial

1872
01:13:50,149 --> 01:13:46,560
things and

1873
01:13:53,910 --> 01:13:50,159
other things that uh other cognitive

1874
01:13:57,430 --> 01:13:53,920
abilities that might account for this

1875
01:13:59,750 --> 01:13:57,440
um this increase whether the

1876
01:14:01,350 --> 01:13:59,760
increase has been in the g factor

1877
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:01,360
however

1878
01:14:04,870 --> 01:14:04,159
is still controversial remember an iq

1879
01:14:07,510 --> 01:14:04,880
score

1880
01:14:08,550 --> 01:14:07,520
includes the g factor plus visual

1881
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:08,560
spatial

1882
01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:11,120
plus numerical plus some verbal

1883
01:14:17,110 --> 01:14:13,679
abilities

1884
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:17,120
and any one of those

1885
01:14:21,510 --> 01:14:19,280
other than the g factor could go up and

1886
01:14:24,310 --> 01:14:21,520
you'd get an increasing iq score that's

1887
01:14:27,350 --> 01:14:24,320
not necessarily due to that underlying g

1888
01:14:31,030 --> 01:14:27,360
factor i see i see and so i think most

1889
01:14:32,950 --> 01:14:31,040
researchers believe it's still an open

1890
01:14:34,149 --> 01:14:32,960
question as to whether or not the flint

1891
01:14:37,669 --> 01:14:34,159
effect relates

1892
01:14:38,470 --> 01:14:37,679
to g it's a it's kind of a mysterious

1893
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:38,480
phenomenon

1894
01:14:44,310 --> 01:14:41,360
almost everyone believes it's true that

1895
01:14:46,470 --> 01:14:44,320
it's a correct observation

1896
01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:46,480
but what it means is not so clear where

1897
01:14:49,510 --> 01:14:48,480
it comes from is not so clear but i

1898
01:14:51,990 --> 01:14:49,520
don't think

1899
01:14:52,950 --> 01:14:52,000
you can extrapolate it into the future

1900
01:14:56,149 --> 01:14:52,960
and it certainly

1901
01:14:59,350 --> 01:14:56,159
doesn't mean that

1902
01:15:01,110 --> 01:14:59,360
because iq changes generation to

1903
01:15:04,149 --> 01:15:01,120
generation

1904
01:15:05,830 --> 01:15:04,159
it can't be genetic because evolution

1905
01:15:09,189 --> 01:15:05,840
doesn't work that quickly

1906
01:15:11,830 --> 01:15:09,199
when the flynn effect was first observed

1907
01:15:13,830 --> 01:15:11,840
a lot of the anti-genetic people seized

1908
01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:13,840
on it as evidence that you see

1909
01:15:18,070 --> 01:15:17,040
it can't be genetic it's malleable now

1910
01:15:20,390 --> 01:15:18,080
we know it it's

1911
01:15:21,430 --> 01:15:20,400
malleable within certain limits but

1912
01:15:24,390 --> 01:15:21,440
whether or not

1913
01:15:25,270 --> 01:15:24,400
that includes the g factor is still not

1914
01:15:27,910 --> 01:15:25,280
so clear

1915
01:15:29,910 --> 01:15:27,920
what can one do to decrease their iq so

1916
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:29,920
we know what to avoid

1917
01:15:34,470 --> 01:15:31,600
drug abuse does that permanently

1918
01:15:37,430 --> 01:15:34,480
decrease your iq amphetamines

1919
01:15:38,950 --> 01:15:37,440
well those things can cause long-term

1920
01:15:42,229 --> 01:15:38,960
abuse

1921
01:15:45,750 --> 01:15:42,239
can cause brain uh

1922
01:15:48,630 --> 01:15:45,760
i i want to say damage

1923
01:15:49,590 --> 01:15:48,640
but it it's it might not reach a

1924
01:15:51,510 --> 01:15:49,600
threshold

1925
01:15:53,350 --> 01:15:51,520
they might cause changes in the brain

1926
01:15:54,870 --> 01:15:53,360
that could be damaged or just more

1927
01:15:58,229 --> 01:15:54,880
subtle changes

1928
01:16:00,229 --> 01:15:58,239
and we don't really know if the more

1929
01:16:03,350 --> 01:16:00,239
subtle changes have an impact on

1930
01:16:08,229 --> 01:16:03,360
something as complex as iq

1931
01:16:11,750 --> 01:16:08,239
which is kind of a trait over time

1932
01:16:14,550 --> 01:16:11,760
if you abuse your brain

1933
01:16:16,070 --> 01:16:14,560
uh does that have an impact on your

1934
01:16:19,110 --> 01:16:16,080
reasoning ability

1935
01:16:21,270 --> 01:16:19,120
it could in some some cases

1936
01:16:25,510 --> 01:16:21,280
but again there are so many different

1937
01:16:29,910 --> 01:16:28,790
i don't i can't believe there's any

1938
01:16:32,950 --> 01:16:29,920
positive effect

1939
01:16:35,750 --> 01:16:32,960
on your the physiology of the brain

1940
01:16:36,630 --> 01:16:35,760
and people who do hallucinogens many

1941
01:16:39,510 --> 01:16:36,640
people

1942
01:16:41,350 --> 01:16:39,520
swear by the positive effect on

1943
01:16:44,229 --> 01:16:41,360
creativity and

1944
01:16:46,790 --> 01:16:44,239
expanding consciousness i don't know

1945
01:16:49,910 --> 01:16:46,800
about any of those things empirically

1946
01:16:53,350 --> 01:16:49,920
but i'm really uh unaware

1947
01:16:56,390 --> 01:16:53,360
of any impact that would have

1948
01:16:59,750 --> 01:16:56,400
other than abuse and brain damage on

1949
01:17:01,110 --> 01:16:59,760
um on cognitive ability

1950
01:17:03,030 --> 01:17:01,120
you just mentioned you just made me

1951
01:17:04,470 --> 01:17:03,040
light up man you mentioned consciousness

1952
01:17:06,310 --> 01:17:04,480
so i'm curious about the relationship

1953
01:17:08,070 --> 01:17:06,320
between intelligence and consciousness

1954
01:17:09,189 --> 01:17:08,080
just as an aside for the people

1955
01:17:09,990 --> 01:17:09,199
listening as well as for yourself

1956
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:10,000
professor

1957
01:17:13,669 --> 01:17:11,760
my goal with this channel as well as

1958
01:17:15,910 --> 01:17:13,679
myself for the next few years

1959
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:15,920
and maybe my whole life i was i'm

1960
01:17:18,550 --> 01:17:17,040
interested in something called the

1961
01:17:20,390 --> 01:17:18,560
theory of everything in physics so what

1962
01:17:22,229 --> 01:17:20,400
are the fundamental laws of physics

1963
01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:22,239
and i have a suspicion that

1964
01:17:27,350 --> 01:17:24,080
consciousness is related somehow and

1965
01:17:28,709 --> 01:17:27,360
which is completely unlike most of the

1966
01:17:31,669 --> 01:17:28,719
physicists who are

1967
01:17:33,189 --> 01:17:31,679
ardent materialists and i might maybe

1968
01:17:36,310 --> 01:17:33,199
materialism is true i'm

1969
01:17:37,990 --> 01:17:36,320
i'm just not convinced but either way

1970
01:17:40,070 --> 01:17:38,000
i'm exploring theories of consciousness

1971
01:17:41,270 --> 01:17:40,080
too so let's talk about consciousness

1972
01:17:42,709 --> 01:17:41,280
what heck what the heck is the

1973
01:17:44,070 --> 01:17:42,719
relationship between intelligence and

1974
01:17:45,590 --> 01:17:44,080
consciousness is it that the more

1975
01:17:47,750 --> 01:17:45,600
intelligent you are the more

1976
01:17:49,189 --> 01:17:47,760
conscious you are is there a measurement

1977
01:17:50,870 --> 01:17:49,199
of conscious i know you can knock it out

1978
01:17:54,870 --> 01:17:50,880
with anesthesia

1979
01:17:55,590 --> 01:17:54,880
well um you may know that i was involved

1980
01:17:59,590 --> 01:17:55,600
in the first

1981
01:18:02,630 --> 01:17:59,600
brain imaging studies of consciousness

1982
01:18:03,110 --> 01:18:02,640
and i did these with my colleague and

1983
01:18:07,510 --> 01:18:03,120
friend

1984
01:18:09,430 --> 01:18:07,520
mike alkire who is an anesthesiologist

1985
01:18:11,510 --> 01:18:09,440
and i met him when he came to me he was

1986
01:18:11,990 --> 01:18:11,520
a resident in the anesthesiology

1987
01:18:15,030 --> 01:18:12,000
department

1988
01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:15,040
he knew about pet scanning he said can

1989
01:18:21,350 --> 01:18:17,520
you help me do pet scans

1990
01:18:23,350 --> 01:18:21,360
in people under anesthesia

1991
01:18:24,390 --> 01:18:23,360
he says what i want to do is i want to

1992
01:18:28,070 --> 01:18:24,400
scan the same

1993
01:18:31,510 --> 01:18:28,080
person three times okay

1994
01:18:33,910 --> 01:18:31,520
once while they're conscious once when i

1995
01:18:35,910 --> 01:18:33,920
give them enough anesthetic drugs so

1996
01:18:38,229 --> 01:18:35,920
they're barely conscious

1997
01:18:39,430 --> 01:18:38,239
you know okay steve can you hear me and

1998
01:18:42,870 --> 01:18:39,440
steve says

1999
01:18:45,189 --> 01:18:42,880
uh yeah

2000
01:18:46,550 --> 01:18:45,199
okay and once while steve is completely

2001
01:18:48,390 --> 01:18:46,560
unconscious

2002
01:18:50,550 --> 01:18:48,400
because i've given him enough anesthetic

2003
01:18:51,510 --> 01:18:50,560
drugs so we did a series of pet studies

2004
01:18:53,430 --> 01:18:51,520
like this

2005
01:18:55,110 --> 01:18:53,440
yeah uh with a couple of different

2006
01:18:56,470 --> 01:18:55,120
anesthetic drugs because they're all

2007
01:18:57,590 --> 01:18:56,480
alleged to have different brain

2008
01:18:59,990 --> 01:18:57,600
mechanisms

2009
01:19:01,990 --> 01:19:00,000
and the question was what's the last

2010
01:19:05,030 --> 01:19:02,000
part of the brain to turn off

2011
01:19:06,790 --> 01:19:05,040
when someone loses consciousness and

2012
01:19:08,870 --> 01:19:06,800
what's the first part of the brain to

2013
01:19:10,709 --> 01:19:08,880
turn on when they regain

2014
01:19:12,630 --> 01:19:10,719
consciousness we published a whole

2015
01:19:14,149 --> 01:19:12,640
series of studies on this in the late

2016
01:19:15,830 --> 01:19:14,159
1990s

2017
01:19:17,189 --> 01:19:15,840
and since then there have been a lot of

2018
01:19:18,550 --> 01:19:17,199
imaging studies of

2019
01:19:20,229 --> 01:19:18,560
intelligence i don't think there were

2020
01:19:23,590 --> 01:19:20,239
any before us

2021
01:19:27,510 --> 01:19:23,600
and uh when you talk about consciousness

2022
01:19:30,390 --> 01:19:27,520
i'm talking about literal consciousness

2023
01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:30,400
and so there are imaging studies that

2024
01:19:34,870 --> 01:19:32,880
are trying to find the brain areas and

2025
01:19:38,310 --> 01:19:34,880
the brain networks

2026
01:19:40,950 --> 01:19:38,320
that underlie consciousness

2027
01:19:44,149 --> 01:19:40,960
by manipulating those networks with

2028
01:19:47,430 --> 01:19:44,159
anesthetic drugs it's an experimental

2029
01:19:49,510 --> 01:19:47,440
approach not just a correlation approach

2030
01:19:51,110 --> 01:19:49,520
and i'm not up on the latest of that i

2031
01:19:54,470 --> 01:19:51,120
haven't done those

2032
01:19:57,750 --> 01:19:54,480
projects in a while um but

2033
01:20:00,870 --> 01:19:57,760
one of the questions i first posed to dr

2034
01:20:03,910 --> 01:20:00,880
alkire as an anesthesiologist

2035
01:20:05,590 --> 01:20:03,920
i said when you have a clinical patient

2036
01:20:08,550 --> 01:20:05,600
and you are dosing them

2037
01:20:09,910 --> 01:20:08,560
for surgery to put them under does it

2038
01:20:13,110 --> 01:20:09,920
make a difference

2039
01:20:15,110 --> 01:20:13,120
if you know if they're what we call

2040
01:20:19,030 --> 01:20:15,120
mentally if they have

2041
01:20:22,310 --> 01:20:19,040
very low iqs

2042
01:20:24,149 --> 01:20:22,320
that is to say it made no difference

2043
01:20:25,830 --> 01:20:24,159
that's what you're investigating more or

2044
01:20:27,830 --> 01:20:25,840
less anesthetic

2045
01:20:29,590 --> 01:20:27,840
yeah that's an interesting question and

2046
01:20:31,590 --> 01:20:29,600
he had no idea

2047
01:20:33,910 --> 01:20:31,600
i said well is there a textbook we can

2048
01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:33,920
go to that will have some information on

2049
01:20:39,189 --> 01:20:35,440
this and he said no

2050
01:20:41,350 --> 01:20:39,199
this is all just kind of clinical feel

2051
01:20:42,870 --> 01:20:41,360
he said we don't really know how

2052
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:42,880
unconscious a person

2053
01:20:48,390 --> 01:20:46,560
is we give them enough medication

2054
01:20:51,030 --> 01:20:48,400
we'll poke them with a needle at some

2055
01:20:52,790 --> 01:20:51,040
point to see if they respond

2056
01:20:55,030 --> 01:20:52,800
and that's how we know how if somebody's

2057
01:20:56,709 --> 01:20:55,040
deep enough for surgery

2058
01:20:58,709 --> 01:20:56,719
and he says we give them memory

2059
01:21:01,750 --> 01:20:58,719
disrupting drugs so if they wake up

2060
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:01,760
during surgery they won't remember it

2061
01:21:05,830 --> 01:21:04,400
it's horrifying horrified horrifying

2062
01:21:07,830 --> 01:21:05,840
information to me

2063
01:21:10,229 --> 01:21:07,840
but this is the way the state of the art

2064
01:21:11,590 --> 01:21:10,239
was in the 1990s i'm not sure it's much

2065
01:21:15,350 --> 01:21:11,600
different now

2066
01:21:17,110 --> 01:21:15,360
there are monitors that allegedly

2067
01:21:19,750 --> 01:21:17,120
monitor how deeply someone is

2068
01:21:20,070 --> 01:21:19,760
anesthetized that is how unconscious

2069
01:21:23,189 --> 01:21:20,080
they

2070
01:21:26,709 --> 01:21:23,199
are whether these work or

2071
01:21:28,310 --> 01:21:26,719
very well or not i don't really know

2072
01:21:30,310 --> 01:21:28,320
but that's how i think about

2073
01:21:30,870 --> 01:21:30,320
consciousness but there's a much bigger

2074
01:21:33,750 --> 01:21:30,880
group of

2075
01:21:35,750 --> 01:21:33,760
of people who think about consciousness

2076
01:21:39,270 --> 01:21:35,760
in a more philosophical

2077
01:21:40,390 --> 01:21:39,280
uh less anesthetic sense more of a

2078
01:21:44,390 --> 01:21:40,400
meditation

2079
01:21:48,709 --> 01:21:44,400
sense yeah and i'm not aware of any

2080
01:21:54,470 --> 01:21:51,830
meditate in meditating to changes in

2081
01:21:55,990 --> 01:21:54,480
intelligence that would go with

2082
01:21:59,110 --> 01:21:56,000
so-called changes in

2083
01:21:59,510 --> 01:21:59,120
consciousness i just don't know whether

2084
01:22:01,590 --> 01:21:59,520
that

2085
01:22:03,030 --> 01:22:01,600
data exists or not speaking of

2086
01:22:03,990 --> 01:22:03,040
meditation some people would say

2087
01:22:05,750 --> 01:22:04,000
mindfulness

2088
01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:05,760
meditation helps them with an increase

2089
01:22:09,669 --> 01:22:07,679
in attention and attention

2090
01:22:11,669 --> 01:22:09,679
is related to intelligence it's not

2091
01:22:14,790 --> 01:22:11,679
synonymous with it but have you seen

2092
01:22:17,669 --> 01:22:14,800
any research that you find

2093
01:22:17,990 --> 01:22:17,679
that you find credible about mindfulness

2094
01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:18,000
and

2095
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:21,040
iq no um

2096
01:22:27,430 --> 01:22:24,080
remember attention is is one component

2097
01:22:30,709 --> 01:22:27,440
so if you are doing an intelligence

2098
01:22:33,990 --> 01:22:30,719
test and you take some drug

2099
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:34,000
or some manipulation like meditation

2100
01:22:39,590 --> 01:22:37,440
that increases your attention

2101
01:22:40,629 --> 01:22:39,600
you might work through the test a little

2102
01:22:43,030 --> 01:22:40,639
faster

2103
01:22:43,669 --> 01:22:43,040
whether you work through it better is

2104
01:22:45,990 --> 01:22:43,679
not so

2105
01:22:47,669 --> 01:22:46,000
clear if you work through it and you

2106
01:22:48,790 --> 01:22:47,679
receive the same score but you did that

2107
01:22:52,709 --> 01:22:48,800
faster is that not an

2108
01:22:55,750 --> 01:22:52,719
increase in intelligence because it

2109
01:22:58,870 --> 01:22:55,760
it depends on what what the test is

2110
01:23:02,229 --> 01:22:58,880
and uh many of the the good tests are

2111
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:02,239
time limited so the more you finish

2112
01:23:07,350 --> 01:23:05,760
correctly right and you did mention in

2113
01:23:09,669 --> 01:23:07,360
the book that the timed tests

2114
01:23:10,550 --> 01:23:09,679
tend to be highly more highly correlated

2115
01:23:13,270 --> 01:23:10,560
than

2116
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:13,280
not with g right because given enough

2117
01:23:15,990 --> 01:23:13,760
time

2118
01:23:17,110 --> 01:23:16,000
a lot more people can solve a lot of the

2119
01:23:19,189 --> 01:23:17,120
problems

2120
01:23:20,709 --> 01:23:19,199
but the idea is by truncating the time

2121
01:23:21,830 --> 01:23:20,719
you're really kind of stressing the

2122
01:23:24,229 --> 01:23:21,840
system

2123
01:23:25,590 --> 01:23:24,239
and the people who can do it very fast

2124
01:23:27,590 --> 01:23:25,600
tend to do better on

2125
01:23:28,950 --> 01:23:27,600
some of these other things i don't know

2126
01:23:29,910 --> 01:23:28,960
if you had a chance to look at the video

2127
01:23:32,149 --> 01:23:29,920
that i sent you

2128
01:23:34,149 --> 01:23:32,159
of joshua bach have you taken a look at

2129
01:23:34,950 --> 01:23:34,159
it briefly looked at it and it's not

2130
01:23:37,590 --> 01:23:34,960
something i know

2131
01:23:38,390 --> 01:23:37,600
anything about so i just you know okay

2132
01:23:40,470 --> 01:23:38,400
okay well i'll

2133
01:23:42,629 --> 01:23:40,480
outline it he was putting forth a theory

2134
01:23:44,790 --> 01:23:42,639
that perhaps plants are more intelligent

2135
01:23:46,790 --> 01:23:44,800
than humans because maybe they they

2136
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:46,800
communicate clearly but it takes quite

2137
01:23:49,990 --> 01:23:47,679
some time

2138
01:23:51,110 --> 01:23:50,000
and maybe throughout the course say a

2139
01:23:52,709 --> 01:23:51,120
thousand years from now

2140
01:23:54,229 --> 01:23:52,719
we would be gone but the plants would

2141
01:23:55,590 --> 01:23:54,239
still be communicating and they serve as

2142
01:23:56,229 --> 01:23:55,600
their own hive mind or on their own

2143
01:23:58,470 --> 01:23:56,239
brain

2144
01:23:59,590 --> 01:23:58,480
in some interconnected manner and i was

2145
01:24:01,669 --> 01:23:59,600
curious what you think

2146
01:24:03,030 --> 01:24:01,679
of that theory from an intelligence

2147
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:03,040
point of view given that you have a

2148
01:24:06,310 --> 01:24:05,199
very specific definition of intelligence

2149
01:24:08,709 --> 01:24:06,320
yes it has no

2150
01:24:09,510 --> 01:24:08,719
bearing to human intelligence and what

2151
01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:09,520
we study

2152
01:24:15,030 --> 01:24:12,800
for human intelligence and you might say

2153
01:24:16,149 --> 01:24:15,040
that certain instincts are more

2154
01:24:17,910 --> 01:24:16,159
intelligent

2155
01:24:20,149 --> 01:24:17,920
than humans as they've been around

2156
01:24:21,990 --> 01:24:20,159
millions of years

2157
01:24:23,910 --> 01:24:22,000
it's a it's a use of the word

2158
01:24:26,149 --> 01:24:23,920
intelligence

2159
01:24:27,510 --> 01:24:26,159
that is kind of interesting but has no

2160
01:24:30,470 --> 01:24:27,520
meaning to me

2161
01:24:32,070 --> 01:24:30,480
i see i see have you looked at the link

2162
01:24:32,870 --> 01:24:32,080
that i sent you about eric weinstein on

2163
01:24:35,030 --> 01:24:32,880
intelligence

2164
01:24:36,470 --> 01:24:35,040
yes i watched the whole thing okay now

2165
01:24:37,590 --> 01:24:36,480
that i haven't watched in quite a while

2166
01:24:38,629 --> 01:24:37,600
so i don't i don't actually know what

2167
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:38,639
i'm gonna ask you about it but do you

2168
01:24:41,990 --> 01:24:40,080
mind expounding like what did you

2169
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:42,000
think about his theories on intelligence

2170
01:24:43,990 --> 01:24:43,679
if you can even articulate them to the

2171
01:24:45,750 --> 01:24:44,000
audience

2172
01:24:47,189 --> 01:24:45,760
first that'd be great well it was a

2173
01:24:49,189 --> 01:24:47,199
discussion between joe

2174
01:24:50,950 --> 01:24:49,199
rogan and eric weinstein two very

2175
01:24:52,550 --> 01:24:50,960
intelligent people

2176
01:24:55,669 --> 01:24:52,560
talking about their views about

2177
01:24:57,669 --> 01:24:55,679
intelligence and it was amusing

2178
01:25:00,149 --> 01:24:57,679
to hear intelligent people talk about

2179
01:25:03,110 --> 01:25:00,159
something they had limited knowledge of

2180
01:25:04,550 --> 01:25:03,120
uh and uh and they were quite

2181
01:25:07,590 --> 01:25:04,560
opinionated about it

2182
01:25:08,950 --> 01:25:07,600
uh joe rogan was much seemed much more

2183
01:25:11,270 --> 01:25:08,960
open about it

2184
01:25:11,990 --> 01:25:11,280
uh eric weinstein had some interesting

2185
01:25:15,270 --> 01:25:12,000
views

2186
01:25:17,990 --> 01:25:15,280
about what uh tests mean and what uh

2187
01:25:20,229 --> 01:25:18,000
intelligence tests don't mean all of

2188
01:25:21,590 --> 01:25:20,239
which i've heard for decades i mean

2189
01:25:22,870 --> 01:25:21,600
for example do you mind saying some of

2190
01:25:23,669 --> 01:25:22,880
them some of the voices he says it

2191
01:25:25,590 --> 01:25:23,679
doesn't measure

2192
01:25:27,510 --> 01:25:25,600
everything that makes people intelligent

2193
01:25:29,990 --> 01:25:27,520
it's very narrow

2194
01:25:30,870 --> 01:25:30,000
and it doesn't include creativity for

2195
01:25:33,910 --> 01:25:30,880
example

2196
01:25:34,390 --> 01:25:33,920
and that some he's specifically talked

2197
01:25:37,510 --> 01:25:34,400
about

2198
01:25:40,229 --> 01:25:37,520
uh africa african americans being more

2199
01:25:43,270 --> 01:25:40,239
creative musically and iq tests don't

2200
01:25:47,430 --> 01:25:43,280
do that and it was a kind of a

2201
01:25:50,470 --> 01:25:47,440
an unfocused discussion

2202
01:25:52,550 --> 01:25:50,480
that threw in stuff about intelligence

2203
01:25:54,070 --> 01:25:52,560
and intelligence testing in almost

2204
01:25:57,830 --> 01:25:54,080
random ways it wasn't

2205
01:25:59,430 --> 01:25:57,840
a really coherent discussion about

2206
01:26:01,910 --> 01:25:59,440
intelligence the way you and i are

2207
01:26:03,990 --> 01:26:01,920
having a discussion about intelligence

2208
01:26:05,910 --> 01:26:04,000
so it was amusing it was a little

2209
01:26:09,030 --> 01:26:05,920
frustrating

2210
01:26:12,470 --> 01:26:09,040
because they were talking about things

2211
01:26:14,550 --> 01:26:12,480
uh in a way that uh intelligence

2212
01:26:17,270 --> 01:26:14,560
researchers would kindly say

2213
01:26:18,629 --> 01:26:17,280
would be unsophisticated uh and they

2214
01:26:20,629 --> 01:26:18,639
were talking a lot about

2215
01:26:23,189 --> 01:26:20,639
the race issue which made them both

2216
01:26:26,550 --> 01:26:23,199
uncomfortable understandably

2217
01:26:28,709 --> 01:26:26,560
about the average differences among

2218
01:26:30,070 --> 01:26:28,719
between blacks and whites specifically

2219
01:26:32,070 --> 01:26:30,080
on iq tests

2220
01:26:34,629 --> 01:26:32,080
and what this means i think they missed

2221
01:26:37,910 --> 01:26:34,639
the bigger point on this

2222
01:26:39,270 --> 01:26:37,920
if you want to uh underst if you want to

2223
01:26:41,910 --> 01:26:39,280
fix that difference

2224
01:26:42,790 --> 01:26:41,920
like compensatory education like head

2225
01:26:45,030 --> 01:26:42,800
start

2226
01:26:46,790 --> 01:26:45,040
like almost every developmental and

2227
01:26:49,430 --> 01:26:46,800
educational psychologist

2228
01:26:51,030 --> 01:26:49,440
would like to do including myself you

2229
01:26:52,229 --> 01:26:51,040
have to understand where the difference

2230
01:26:54,149 --> 01:26:52,239
comes from

2231
01:26:56,070 --> 01:26:54,159
if there's a genetic component to that

2232
01:26:58,790 --> 01:26:56,080
you got to know that

2233
01:27:00,310 --> 01:26:58,800
if it's a cultural problem you got to

2234
01:27:03,030 --> 01:27:00,320
know that

2235
01:27:05,910 --> 01:27:03,040
and so it's still an uncomfortable

2236
01:27:08,229 --> 01:27:05,920
subject most people stay away from it

2237
01:27:10,550 --> 01:27:08,239
and ironically the longer people the

2238
01:27:12,390 --> 01:27:10,560
longer scientists stay away from it

2239
01:27:13,830 --> 01:27:12,400
the longer the underlying problem

2240
01:27:17,430 --> 01:27:13,840
whatever it is

2241
01:27:17,830 --> 01:27:17,440
will persist have you been keeping up

2242
01:27:20,709 --> 01:27:17,840
with

2243
01:27:23,110 --> 01:27:20,719
elon musk and neuralink i've been

2244
01:27:26,950 --> 01:27:23,120
following it to the best of my ability

2245
01:27:29,430 --> 01:27:26,960
um what he's doing is very interesting

2246
01:27:30,870 --> 01:27:29,440
i'm not sure how much real neuroscience

2247
01:27:33,830 --> 01:27:30,880
there is underlying

2248
01:27:34,550 --> 01:27:33,840
what they're actually trying to do but

2249
01:27:36,070 --> 01:27:34,560
it's it's

2250
01:27:39,030 --> 01:27:36,080
it's worth doing this they're playing

2251
01:27:41,750 --> 01:27:39,040
around with something very interesting

2252
01:27:43,270 --> 01:27:41,760
and there might be a feature in it have

2253
01:27:44,390 --> 01:27:43,280
you seen anything that would increase

2254
01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:44,400
someone's iq

2255
01:27:47,669 --> 01:27:46,960
by by injecting i'm not injecting by

2256
01:27:50,310 --> 01:27:47,679
inserting

2257
01:27:52,070 --> 01:27:50,320
electrodes uh no because we don't know

2258
01:27:55,189 --> 01:27:52,080
where to insert them and what to tell

2259
01:27:58,870 --> 01:27:57,510
but doesn't mean we can't find out i

2260
01:28:00,550 --> 01:27:58,880
don't know if you look into

2261
01:28:02,310 --> 01:28:00,560
artificial intelligence but the

2262
01:28:03,110 --> 01:28:02,320
generalizability is what held watson

2263
01:28:05,350 --> 01:28:03,120
back from being

2264
01:28:06,229 --> 01:28:05,360
considered to be a high iq computer

2265
01:28:09,669 --> 01:28:06,239
let's say

2266
01:28:12,950 --> 01:28:09,679
that is that it was great in one domain

2267
01:28:14,709 --> 01:28:12,960
is there a test for iq for computers

2268
01:28:17,830 --> 01:28:14,719
that you know of or that you can think

2269
01:28:21,189 --> 01:28:17,840
of or do you have any speculations

2270
01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:21,199
well let's see about 15 years ago i gave

2271
01:28:27,189 --> 01:28:23,040
a talk

2272
01:28:31,110 --> 01:28:27,199
at a group

2273
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:31,120
of artificial intelligence researchers

2274
01:28:37,669 --> 01:28:34,560
about what they might learn from people

2275
01:28:39,270 --> 01:28:37,679
like myself who study real human

2276
01:28:41,990 --> 01:28:39,280
intelligence

2277
01:28:42,870 --> 01:28:42,000
and my whole talk was a pitch on the g

2278
01:28:45,910 --> 01:28:42,880
factor

2279
01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:45,920
the general ability it was a pitch

2280
01:28:49,510 --> 01:28:49,199
on understanding the general factor the

2281
01:28:52,550 --> 01:28:49,520
g

2282
01:28:55,990 --> 01:28:52,560
factor in humans and how important

2283
01:28:57,750 --> 01:28:56,000
the g factor was and at the time

2284
01:29:00,149 --> 01:28:57,760
a lot of a lot of artificial

2285
01:29:03,910 --> 01:29:00,159
intelligence was trying to break

2286
01:29:07,030 --> 01:29:03,920
human cognition into discrete pieces

2287
01:29:07,910 --> 01:29:07,040
this task that task and i said the key

2288
01:29:11,270 --> 01:29:07,920
is how you're going to

2289
01:29:14,790 --> 01:29:11,280
integrate all that and that

2290
01:29:23,350 --> 01:29:14,800
when they did statistical analysis on

2291
01:29:27,030 --> 01:29:25,750
okay so with respect to artificial

2292
01:29:28,629 --> 01:29:27,040
intelligence

2293
01:29:31,189 --> 01:29:28,639
i gave a lecture to a group of

2294
01:29:33,910 --> 01:29:31,199
artificial intelligence researchers

2295
01:29:34,950 --> 01:29:33,920
many years ago and i emphasized the g

2296
01:29:36,950 --> 01:29:34,960
factor

2297
01:29:38,390 --> 01:29:36,960
that it wasn't so much the individual

2298
01:29:41,430 --> 01:29:38,400
components

2299
01:29:44,790 --> 01:29:41,440
but how they would be related in

2300
01:29:47,910 --> 01:29:44,800
artificial intelligence and

2301
01:29:50,470 --> 01:29:47,920
i've subsequently understood that the

2302
01:29:53,590 --> 01:29:50,480
field of artificial intelligence is now

2303
01:29:57,590 --> 01:29:53,600
paying much more attention to this

2304
01:29:59,030 --> 01:29:57,600
general factor and algorithms that would

2305
01:30:00,790 --> 01:29:59,040
simulate it

2306
01:30:02,550 --> 01:30:00,800
what they're doing i don't really know

2307
01:30:03,750 --> 01:30:02,560
i'm not really up on artificial

2308
01:30:07,350 --> 01:30:03,760
intelligence

2309
01:30:10,470 --> 01:30:07,360
but you asked if there was any uh

2310
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:10,480
test computer test for artificial

2311
01:30:15,750 --> 01:30:11,920
intelligence

2312
01:30:19,270 --> 01:30:15,760
um i have wanted to

2313
01:30:22,470 --> 01:30:19,280
ask uh compare siri

2314
01:30:27,189 --> 01:30:22,480
to echo and alexa

2315
01:30:31,590 --> 01:30:29,830
just kind of general information i would

2316
01:30:33,350 --> 01:30:31,600
imagine they'd score extremely high on a

2317
01:30:38,790 --> 01:30:33,360
ravens test

2318
01:30:42,709 --> 01:30:41,669
right because they're audio only yeah so

2319
01:30:45,910 --> 01:30:42,719
i mean it's an

2320
01:30:47,669 --> 01:30:45,920
interesting question um

2321
01:30:49,990 --> 01:30:47,679
there might be computer programs already

2322
01:30:53,189 --> 01:30:50,000
that that solve raven's problems

2323
01:30:55,189 --> 01:30:53,199
uh i'm not aware of it uh it seems like

2324
01:30:58,470 --> 01:30:55,199
it would be an easy visual input

2325
01:31:00,229 --> 01:30:58,480
relatively easy visual input

2326
01:31:02,310 --> 01:31:00,239
so yeah i don't really know that much

2327
01:31:05,030 --> 01:31:02,320
about artificial intelligence but my

2328
01:31:08,149 --> 01:31:05,040
hunch is the more they can simulate

2329
01:31:12,229 --> 01:31:08,159
real human intelligence uh

2330
01:31:15,430 --> 01:31:12,239
not an easy thing to do but that

2331
01:31:16,709 --> 01:31:15,440
must be where they're trying to go

2332
01:31:18,390 --> 01:31:16,719
i think it's in this book you mentioned

2333
01:31:18,870 --> 01:31:18,400
that there's some studies with rats and

2334
01:31:20,950 --> 01:31:18,880
the g

2335
01:31:22,390 --> 01:31:20,960
factor in rats now that's extremely

2336
01:31:23,350 --> 01:31:22,400
interesting if that's true you can

2337
01:31:26,870 --> 01:31:23,360
extract a g

2338
01:31:28,790 --> 01:31:26,880
factor from animals

2339
01:31:31,430 --> 01:31:28,800
not only are there stuff can you tell me

2340
01:31:35,350 --> 01:31:31,440
a little bit about that

2341
01:31:38,709 --> 01:31:35,360
um two interesting things about the g

2342
01:31:41,830 --> 01:31:38,719
factor there is a a good

2343
01:31:45,189 --> 01:31:41,840
research uh report showing

2344
01:31:45,750 --> 01:31:45,199
that the g factor occurs in i think it

2345
01:31:48,229 --> 01:31:45,760
was over

2346
01:31:49,590 --> 01:31:48,239
30 different cultures where they gave a

2347
01:31:51,270 --> 01:31:49,600
battery of tests

2348
01:31:53,590 --> 01:31:51,280
from which they could extract the g

2349
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:53,600
factor so it's

2350
01:31:59,910 --> 01:31:56,880
not culturally specific it seems to be

2351
01:32:00,790 --> 01:31:59,920
more of a cultural universal that's

2352
01:32:04,149 --> 01:32:00,800
number one

2353
01:32:07,310 --> 01:32:04,159
number two there are animal studies

2354
01:32:10,149 --> 01:32:07,320
where you can have animals do various

2355
01:32:14,470 --> 01:32:10,159
problem-solving activities

2356
01:32:17,910 --> 01:32:14,480
you know and score how well they do

2357
01:32:19,910 --> 01:32:17,920
and then factor analyze the different

2358
01:32:22,550 --> 01:32:19,920
problems they do and you can come up

2359
01:32:25,110 --> 01:32:22,560
with a g factor that's very similar

2360
01:32:26,870 --> 01:32:25,120
to the g factor in humans this has been

2361
01:32:31,350 --> 01:32:26,880
done in rats

2362
01:32:37,350 --> 01:32:34,470
uh it's uh so

2363
01:32:38,229 --> 01:32:37,360
interesting yeah so there's it seems to

2364
01:32:41,510 --> 01:32:38,239
be

2365
01:32:43,669 --> 01:32:41,520
this general reasoning factor in

2366
01:32:45,590 --> 01:32:43,679
a number of animal species now what it

2367
01:32:47,910 --> 01:32:45,600
means i'm not clear

2368
01:32:50,229 --> 01:32:47,920
but it's important for intelligence

2369
01:32:53,510 --> 01:32:50,239
researchers to know that this may not be

2370
01:32:54,870 --> 01:32:53,520
a uniquely human thing

2371
01:32:56,709 --> 01:32:54,880
there's that age-old question what

2372
01:32:58,390 --> 01:32:56,719
separates man from the beast

2373
01:33:00,149 --> 01:32:58,400
us from the animals do you have any

2374
01:33:01,910 --> 01:33:00,159
speculations any ideas

2375
01:33:03,189 --> 01:33:01,920
maybe humans are humans the only ones

2376
01:33:05,590 --> 01:33:03,199
that would sacrifice food for

2377
01:33:07,750 --> 01:33:05,600
intellectual stimulation

2378
01:33:09,830 --> 01:33:07,760
the only differences i know of are the

2379
01:33:12,709 --> 01:33:09,840
obvious

2380
01:33:13,590 --> 01:33:12,719
i i i don't know how to conceptualize an

2381
01:33:15,830 --> 01:33:13,600
answer to that

2382
01:33:19,350 --> 01:33:15,840
that question it used to be when i was

2383
01:33:26,390 --> 01:33:23,510
people would say that tool use separated

2384
01:33:26,870 --> 01:33:26,400
uh humans but in an anthropology course

2385
01:33:29,830 --> 01:33:26,880
i took

2386
01:33:30,790 --> 01:33:29,840
and way back in college they were

2387
01:33:34,390 --> 01:33:30,800
showing

2388
01:33:37,830 --> 01:33:34,400
some i think with jane goodall film of

2389
01:33:40,470 --> 01:33:37,840
monkeys using sticks to extract termites

2390
01:33:41,910 --> 01:33:40,480
uh and then lick the stick so they were

2391
01:33:45,669 --> 01:33:41,920
using tools

2392
01:33:47,110 --> 01:33:45,679
um so yeah uh there are obvious

2393
01:33:50,149 --> 01:33:47,120
differences

2394
01:33:53,510 --> 01:33:50,159
but uh the brains are different uh

2395
01:33:55,270 --> 01:33:53,520
humans seem to have more uh cognitive

2396
01:33:59,270 --> 01:33:55,280
capability

2397
01:34:01,510 --> 01:33:59,280
especially for abstract things

2398
01:34:04,709 --> 01:34:01,520
so i i don't really know much professor

2399
01:34:09,270 --> 01:34:04,719
where can people find out more about you

2400
01:34:12,669 --> 01:34:09,280
um what you're working on

2401
01:34:14,550 --> 01:34:12,679
uh people can go to my website

2402
01:34:17,990 --> 01:34:14,560
richardhire.com

2403
01:34:21,830 --> 01:34:18,000
you will find links to the book

2404
01:34:25,350 --> 01:34:21,840
the neuroscience of intelligence

2405
01:34:26,870 --> 01:34:25,360
they will see links to the two books in

2406
01:34:30,149 --> 01:34:26,880
progress

2407
01:34:32,550 --> 01:34:30,159
and they will see pdfs of many of my

2408
01:34:35,669 --> 01:34:32,560
research papers and

2409
01:34:41,030 --> 01:34:35,679
some links to various videos of

2410
01:34:45,750 --> 01:34:43,830
thank you so much i appreciate it well

2411
01:34:46,790 --> 01:34:45,760
please send me a link to the final

2412
01:34:49,430 --> 01:34:46,800
version

2413
01:34:56,310 --> 01:34:49,440
and i enjoy talking to you it's pretty

2414
01:34:59,990 --> 01:34:57,990
yeah that's right and it doesn't look

2415
01:35:01,750 --> 01:35:00,000
like i read it because i don't make a

2416
01:35:04,470 --> 01:35:01,760
single note in any of my books and

2417
01:35:06,629 --> 01:35:04,480
as if you know the personality research

2418
01:35:07,990 --> 01:35:06,639
i score extremely high on orderliness

2419
01:35:11,109 --> 01:35:08,000
which means i like things to be in their

2420
01:35:13,669 --> 01:35:11,119
place i don't like i don't want to

2421
01:35:14,310 --> 01:35:13,679
desecrate this book with my ink so i

2422
01:35:17,910 --> 01:35:14,320
keep it

2423
01:35:23,990 --> 01:35:17,920
pristine but i read a cover to cover

2424
01:35:28,070 --> 01:35:26,550
yeah yeah i don't recommend books i

2425
01:35:29,350 --> 01:35:28,080
think i think

2426
01:35:31,270 --> 01:35:29,360
i don't i think this might be the only

2427
01:35:32,149 --> 01:35:31,280
book that i'll be recommending on the

2428
01:35:33,669 --> 01:35:32,159
entire channel